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Number five, I was in a
job. And the first time I went

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to a meeting that really dealt
with that I had agreed to take

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this new position and the
defense programs and I went in

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and talked to Roger Fisher about
it in some detail. And of

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course, Vic wasn't available
that day. First meeting, there

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was a rainstorm, and I drove in
and I was late. I walk into the

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secure space where we're at
meetings. And Mike was there

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alone with Bruce tarter that
Samuelsson, a couple of other

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people that weren't managed? I
walk in in the middle of a

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meeting. And PIP is talking, Vic
said was saying, quote, no NIF

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no Livermore, and gold and then
we went through about how is

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Livermore think that can
accomplish this project? What it

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was all about how is going to
get put together? We took we

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came to a break. And Mike and
Vic were out in the hallway

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talking to each other and I
heard Vic say to Mike, I heard

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this guy Crandall has agreed to
come on in. So I woke up and

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stick out my hand and said, Yes,
sir, I have. And it just proves

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how open and how direct Vick
was. I walked in in the middle

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of a very significant meeting,
and he didn't know who I was,

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and he never missed a beat. And
Mike. So that's how I got

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started in this. It still
surprises me that I agreed to

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some of them.

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Some of the day forget one
thing. He told Marshall Slater

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that I took that he was going to
I hear that you're going to

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retire. Marshall didn't talk to
me for four months. Lou, thanks,

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says you're gonna retire. I
mean.

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Yes, I wanted to tell that. You
didn't even but okay. I want to

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make a couple of comments if I
can about people is for me,

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there were three big scientific
leaders who made who enabled

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NIST to happen from the
perspective of the government.

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And they were well after the
Putin and Marshall Rosen. There

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were some others and even you
probably don't even know that

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Neil Lane had a role. Neil Lane
was an old friend from atomic

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physics. He was the president
sighs advisor and later the head

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of NSF. He had a favorite knife
a couple times. And then there

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was such a big raft of people in
the government. That made a big

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difference. And I particularly
want to single out Ernie Moniz

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and Charlie Curtis. Ernie was
deputy secretary Undersecretary

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to Richardson when NIF had its
difficulties. And Richardson

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actually looked to Moniz as to
what to do. And he he made a

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huge difference. And he refused
to consider forcing the lab to,

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to downsize, which I took to
him. One on one. He said, No,

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don't ever mention it again. And
I did. And Bill Richardson was

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extremely important, because he
really didn't favor going

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forward with NAFTA, we had
crossover. But through a series

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of meetings and through a great
deal of input from George

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Miller, and some from me, Tom
Gioconda. He agreed finally, and

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I always really remember that
day, that moment, at about 430

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or five o'clock when he said
okay, to some ideas had been put

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on the table for scheduling how
to proceed. And we were Tom

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Gioconda said, Come with me back
to the office and he sat down in

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front of his computer and he
said, Tell me what to write. And

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I dictated some stuff. And by
630, he delivered it in person

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to Richardson and it got signed.
So that was how we got past Bill

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Richardson. Very critical point.
Before that, there was a moment

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when Jack Givens who was the
President's Science Advisor

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called the meeting and I
couldn't give you a precise

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date. And I was sort of done.
When Charlie Curtis's officer

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called down and says put
together some charts about where

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we stand with NIF. We were just
starting really designed and

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come to this meeting with me and
that OMB was there and then

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Security National Security
Office was there. There were

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only about a six eight people in
the meeting. And so given says

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Tell me what about NIF and I
started engine to the future

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are. And in the middle of the
first chart, he said, Stop. This

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is not really what I want to
cancel this and put all the

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money into new Transformers that
don't grow. And Charlie said, we

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don't favor that. Doe money
anyway. We don't favor that. And

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that when you're ready to talk
to the President about it,

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please invite us and we walked
out. We never heard another

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word. Charlie Curtis had
tremendous integrity and stomach

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and stuff like that. And he did
it more than once. And he signed

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as Acting Secretary, he signed
the start of construction if,

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essentially on my site. So we
had the national I had the

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National Academies report, but
we couldn't not use it. So I

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couldn't refer to it at all. But
I had been able to read it. All

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I could say was, I think we're
ready. And we should sign this.

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And you won't get in trouble
politically for doing in the

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science community. And you did.
So those are some people who,

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who really had a big role. In
all this, I would also mentioned

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somebody you might not think of
is Ray Orbach. Ray was a

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constant problem. Because he had
secretaries here. He was the

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secretary, science advisor. And
he was always asking questions

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about stockpile stewardship,
always asking questions about

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NIF. And I remember when life
came up, and Ed came in to talk

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about life, and I got invited
NIV and edited by me, but

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Horbach invited me and at the
end of the session

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for Vox was give me ignition and
come back and talk. And I said,

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Absolutely right. That was that
was essentially the end of the

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idea of going forward with life
as a government program. ray,

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ray Orbach was there a lot and
had to be dealt with frequently.

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But he asked reasonable
questions. A good scientist and

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underneath. Okay. So, Friday,
the 13th of December 1995, I

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started I started my office
because of him. And I've been

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engaged with him entirely since
in the early days, he would

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always call me at 730 in the
morning, his time 1030 My time

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as he was driving into work. And
my favorite event was, we're

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talking on the phone while he's
driving. And all of a sudden, I

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hear sirens, and he pulls over
and then I hear a state

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patrolman saying something about
a speeding ticket.

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I remember that.

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Faster. We're going, I don't
know. But

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I can tell you where exactly
where it was.

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Many other comments, but and
memories. And I just want to

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say, you know, given the
animosity of people within the

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program, and between the weapons
program and the laser program,

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which still exists to some
level, and the constant calling

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upon people to do things they've
never done before and had no

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knowledge about how to do. It is
stunning to me that we sit here

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with this level of success, and
it never would have happened

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without money.

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Alright, thanks, Dave, for nice
comments. So let's go to the

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next person and later list. Mr.
Kerman. Are you online? Here?

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Can you hear me? Alright, Mark,
maybe you can share your

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comments or stories?

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Sure. Well, first of all, I just
want to add my congratulations

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to Mike on a just an incredible
career, which isn't over I know

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very much. There's, I'm sure
there's a lot more, Mike will

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do. But just amazing. To think
about, you know, where we are

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today as a field and knowing
that without Mike, we wouldn't

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be there. Also just want to say
over my thanks for your

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mentorship and advice, and, and
feedback over the years. I know.

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It's made a huge difference for
me personally. And so I really,

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really appreciate it want to say
thank you. So I first got

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involved in ICF was doing a
thesis on magnetic fusion in the

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late 1990s. And at Princeton, it
was not a great time for the

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magnetic fusion community. And I
remember Mike coming and giving

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a seminar Marshall was in the
audience. He was having a one on

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one with Marshall while he was
giving a seminar and but, you

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know, really an exciting vision
for you know, something magnetic

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fusion couldn't figure out where
the next step was. wasn't enough

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was coming online and at that
time was coming online very soon

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and it was a super exciting
time. So Morty Rosen and Max

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Dave and John Lindell recruited
me to Livermore, and so, got to

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go there and get involved in ICF
design. Mike played another big

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role. Mike and Joe, actually, in
2004, encouraged me to think

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about going someplace else. Just
explore it. I had never thought

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about it for a second before the
conversation with Joe and Mike

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at GA and ended up going to
Sandia for a few years, which

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was a great time. And I think
the discussion around

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coopetition is exactly right,
the stakes for our nuclear

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deterrent are so high, we need
both to collaborate and compete.

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And I know pulsed power and
lasers, the multiple lasers and

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post power have made our program
is it's a huge strength of the

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program. And it's made us all so
much better, because we have

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those that that competition in
addition to collaboration, and

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then in 2014, came back to
Livermore to be the NIF director

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and again, worked very closely
with Mike really appreciate

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particularly the the very trying
times in 2018, when the budget

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was under great threat. And so
the partnership then as well, so

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but all throughout my career, I
really just want to say thanks

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to Mike for his his great
leadership and in mentorship and

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partnership. So thanks.

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Thank you, Mark. John, John
Klein, how about you online,

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I am online or you can hear me
before I talk to myself. So I'm

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kind of a late comer to this. I
started in the program just

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after 2002 after my kid, left
the program for a while and

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didn't get a chance to start
really working with Mike again

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until he went to ll E. And since
that time, I have really enjoyed

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the opportunity to work with
Mike. He's been a very vocal

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advocate for the Los Alamos
program. I've had I got turned

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on to drinking cosmopolitans. In
fact, now I know how to make

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them really well, just in case I
need to butter mike up. And so I

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think, you know, what's really
great often is, you know, Mike

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gets to talk to my bosses,
sometimes more than I do. So

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that's how I find out what
they're thinking often. Because,

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you know, Mike is prolific in
the field. And there are many

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comments all day have been
nailing Mike is someone who's

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been very inclusive, tries to
get people on board. And I think

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many people have supported Los
Alamos his program and growing

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it. And, but I think Mike has
been a very vocal component of

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that. And I'm not only that I
appreciate the scientific talks

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that we have, and the direction
of the field and working with

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him, and what I learned from
him. And I'm always, somewhat at

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all and what I like to say is,
Mike has 8000 friends, and I'm

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in the top 2000. So I'm doing
really well. And if people

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notice, like I said, I feel
honored to be included in the

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group on the panel, because I
think, you know, I don't

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necessarily deserve to share the
same stage with many of the

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other people. But I do have a
cartoon. So if you can see my

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icon, I have made it to that
level. So I'm feeling pretty

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good about that. Thanks.

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Thank you, John. Crease, since
you are a member of this panel,

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why don't you say a few words
about Neef about Mike.

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You know, thanks. So yeah, I
mean, I spent most of my career

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at Sandia. You know, I'd always
heard about this, Mike Campbell.

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And you can see the impact to
Mike Campbell, I think we only

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be met briefly a couple of
conferences. But to the point

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that's been made, the Sandia
program became so much stronger

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because of that competition with
with Livermore, you know, so as

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my drove the net forward, what
Neff was going to do, you know,

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we were we were hell bent to try
to derail this through showing

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great success on Z. I was
probably and make straight was

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probably two or three years.
Yeah. But it was. It was an

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amazing time. And the same that,
you know, right at that same

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time, your Jonas the same
things. Why are we investing in

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there? You know, we're joined
flat in Albuquerque, drugless.

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Right. And all these things,
stories. But that's actually why

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the level we're offered. Depends
what laser to to Sandia. No,

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actually, I told Keith, one time
I said, Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm

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thinking that maybe we're like,
castaways, we're floating in the

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ocean. motion and this rich,
rich guy job comes up and says,

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Well, I can't rescue you, I'll
give you this box of gold. So

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you can pay for somebody to take
your way. And you think so. But

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you know, it turns out, it'd be
much harder to be a fantastic

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investment. But when I really
got to see the difference

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between makes leadership and the
following leadership for the

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National Ignition Facility was
when I joined government.

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Thanks, Dave recruited me into
NSC. You know, I, they offered

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me the chance to run ACF when
Christine left and actually

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said, I don't want to work with
those crazies. And so I didn't

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bet on it. And they basically
selected somebody that fell

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through and eventually said,
Please, would you take over ACF?

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He said, Sure. So I took over
ACF kept science campaign. But

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it was, you know, a pivotal
time, because, you know, we all

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knew ignition was going to be
hard. We all knew, I mean, you

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the chance to get it done in
2012. Were pretty small,

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under the minus five, one of the
committee.

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And so, but that habit to
stockpile stewardship was going

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to be important. And so I think
that at that point, you know,

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really required headquarters
leadership, to keep nepheline

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00:16:16.830 --> 00:16:19.800
past that ignition is important
that will be important for

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stockpile stewardship going
forward, it will lay the

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groundwork to the future beyond
ignition. But we need to show

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value and never know. And so all
the work that Mike had done on

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Nova with Omega building that
linkage between the weapons

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community, the ICF community
became critical at that at that

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time, because I assure you,
Congress, certain of the parts

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of the Appropriations Committee
were waiting for nifty Thiel.

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And as it was, in many ways, it
was still considered as a

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failure when it didn't get to
ignition. But everybody in the

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technical community knew that it
was going to take a long time.

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And so inif itself was a
success. Because I mean, if you

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scale up to any of those other
laser facilities and see how

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much never should have cost,
you're in the five to $10

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billion range. So the fact that
Nick was manually done it 3.5

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billion 15 billion. Yeah, it was
a it was an amazing

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accomplishment. It was amazing,
you know, and it was all due to

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the architecture, the multipass,
the Pepsi's, etc. So, I mean, it

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was a great success. But
unfortunately, bad marketing

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00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:35.700
made it made it a problem. But I
want you to highlight one story

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that captures make and make
wasn't involved that he was used

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as a as an example. And Moses is
in my office, it cut its budget

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by $10 million. If it was some
relatively small cup. And he's

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telling me, we've just crashed
or Senator Feinstein was going

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00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:54.660
to be calling me shortly because
they were gonna have to layoff

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00:17:54.660 --> 00:17:59.550
100 people, you know, usual
story. And so, at one point, I

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just looked at it and said, If
Mike Campbell was in my office,

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asking for money, when he left,
I would feel bad. That couldn't

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00:18:13.650 --> 00:18:19.950
give him more money. I said,
edge you. On the other hand, I

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feel like I'm getting mugged at
an ATM machine.

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But in that moment, I mean, that
is a microcosm of the the, you

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know, the different characters
that you know, make builds a

254
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community, even that
competition, you will, you know,

255
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you're always building a
community, where your edit was,

256
00:18:42.510 --> 00:18:44.910
you know, it was all about what
you've given me right now,

257
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what's what's to my advantage,
and it changes it changes the

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nature of the community around
about it, but, but it's great to

259
00:18:51.750 --> 00:18:54.300
see all the technical progress
and stockpile stewardship has

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now happened on NIF and Z in
response. And so, I mean, right

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now, you know, if you told
designers in September of 23rd,

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of 1992, when the divider shook
the ground, that 30 years from

263
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now, we've been making these
measurements in these

264
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facilities. We've been doing
this sort of work in America,

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we've been doing this work at
sea, we've been doing this work

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at NIST, we'd actually have got
hotspot ignition demonstrated,

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nobody would have believed it.
So I mean, it's been an amazing

268
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time in that program. And but it
was, you know, I think as we've

269
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talked through today, we've seen
how this guy lives and nearly

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all the foundations for the

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following that up. NIF has many
fathers. I claim to be one

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certainly Vic is probably the
number one Father. Jeff can

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claim to be one he he designed
it. George Miller was the Savior

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when we had problems. It's like
a girl who slept around a lot.

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Mike's the only mother. He
doesn't know for sure who the

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father But he's the mother. He's
the one who suffered through the

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delivery through it. And so
Mike's the mother of NIF. And

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we'll never get away from that.

279
00:20:14.250 --> 00:20:19.200
All right. So I just realized we
have a flowing now schedule, we

280
00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:25.110
can reach here. But he is not
officially any panel member. So

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00:20:25.110 --> 00:20:28.080
Rich, why don't you share a few
stories?

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00:20:31.770 --> 00:20:45.660
So, yeah, I guess it's the start
beginning. Well as go back to

283
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the 1980s. And even before Ron
Parker had sold for an

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incredibly cheap price, probably
more than I was worth anyway.

285
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But in any event, Mike and I had
started, you know, Mike, the the

286
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:12.360
interesting and fun thing about
Mike is he's, he's thinking

287
00:21:12.360 --> 00:21:16.290
about a lot of things. And he's
always sort of, I guess, he's a

288
00:21:16.290 --> 00:21:21.090
natural born recruiter, I can't
say of talent, in my case. But

289
00:21:21.120 --> 00:21:24.480
but that he was in and we
started talking back in the 80s

290
00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:27.390
in T ganglia, and I had been
doing some calculations on

291
00:21:27.390 --> 00:21:31.140
stopping power, and so on and so
forth. So Mike, and I struck up

292
00:21:31.140 --> 00:21:35.070
a conversation, I think, was
about 919 87. I think he's he

293
00:21:35.070 --> 00:21:41.850
invited me at an EPS meeting up
for lunch, and Danny was not, it

294
00:21:41.850 --> 00:21:54.990
was not high yet. To have a
wallet that really started Mike,

295
00:21:55.020 --> 00:21:58.230
Mike, at that point, started
talking to me about, you know,

296
00:21:58.260 --> 00:22:03.750
ICF, and high density physics
and, and, and I, and we had, of

297
00:22:03.750 --> 00:22:07.740
course, at MIT, the only things
I thought about was, you know,

298
00:22:08.010 --> 00:22:11.880
MSc and magnetic fusion, and I
was actually in that program for

299
00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:16.800
a number of years. And, but but
at that time, you know, Mike

300
00:22:16.800 --> 00:22:20.550
really sort of kindled my
interest and because, and he

301
00:22:20.760 --> 00:22:25.170
gave opportunities wasn't long
before, you know, Mike Certus,

302
00:22:25.530 --> 00:22:30.360
started small, sending small
contracts to the MIT team. And

303
00:22:30.360 --> 00:22:33.060
we were doing calculations in
support. It's different

304
00:22:33.060 --> 00:22:37.650
diagnostics, and one of them was
magnetic spectrometers, and so

305
00:22:37.650 --> 00:22:40.590
on and so forth. And, you know,
John knows some of that history

306
00:22:40.590 --> 00:22:44.250
quite a bit. Well, back in high
temperature, plasma diagnostics,

307
00:22:44.250 --> 00:22:48.600
but so for better or worse, you
know, I'm here today because of

308
00:22:48.600 --> 00:22:53.250
Mike, is, I guess what you can
say. And of course, that's,

309
00:22:53.340 --> 00:22:56.550
that's why it was so important
for me to come up today. And

310
00:22:56.850 --> 00:23:01.710
not, I mean, Zoom was wonderful,
sort of, but it's not quite the

311
00:23:01.710 --> 00:23:06.060
same thing as being here in
person and and someone who's as

312
00:23:06.060 --> 00:23:12.060
been as instrumental to the MIT
program. I mean, Mike deserves a

313
00:23:12.060 --> 00:23:15.510
huge amount. And the other the
other really critical component,

314
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of course, Mike connected is
also to Li Li, and back then did

315
00:23:21.030 --> 00:23:26.160
to John and to Bob. Bob McCrory.
And Craig is out of Livermore

316
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.160
said, Tom, I remember, you know,
we were interacting, in fact,

317
00:23:29.520 --> 00:23:30.180
you were trying

318
00:23:30.660 --> 00:23:32.910
to hire you. Oh, yeah. No,

319
00:23:32.939 --> 00:23:37.439
I know. And so by that time, we
were sort of off and running.

320
00:23:37.469 --> 00:23:42.689
But, so. So it was, you know,
really, you know, Mike has been

321
00:23:42.719 --> 00:23:46.679
an inspiration. I know, for a
lot of you, but many, many

322
00:23:46.679 --> 00:23:50.549
times, you know, where we've had
problems and issues. You know,

323
00:23:50.549 --> 00:23:56.279
he's, he was the go to guy. And
no, it's pretty impressive. No

324
00:23:56.279 --> 00:24:01.289
matter how busy Mike was. We
used to send in the paper, and I

325
00:24:01.289 --> 00:24:05.279
don't I still don't quite get
it, how he was able to sort of

326
00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:08.819
read the paper and about two or
three days later, he'd sent

327
00:24:08.849 --> 00:24:13.079
comments back. You know, I when
I get a paper, it sits there for

328
00:24:13.079 --> 00:24:13.949
six months.

329
00:24:16.170 --> 00:24:20.850
He did that at Livermore. All
the time. Amazing stuff. We used

330
00:24:20.850 --> 00:24:23.340
to get things back the next day.
Well, I am

331
00:24:23.340 --> 00:24:26.430
convinced he doesn't sleep. I
mean, it can be the only

332
00:24:26.430 --> 00:24:27.270
explanation.

333
00:24:28.740 --> 00:24:36.090
But you can ask my wife to
comment on time on airplanes.

334
00:24:36.840 --> 00:24:41.070
Well, yeah, the the red I
probably the red is coming back.

335
00:24:43.050 --> 00:24:56.820
Yeah. And it was just a mess for
him. reading papers. Well, if

336
00:24:56.820 --> 00:25:00.690
you know and the thing of it was
if you get a paper bag And it's

337
00:25:00.690 --> 00:25:03.600
not like, Hey, I read it, here
would be comments in the

338
00:25:03.600 --> 00:25:09.870
margins. Have you thought about
this? And usually no. But, you

339
00:25:09.870 --> 00:25:14.430
know, so. So Mike was not only
just really instrumental for,

340
00:25:14.460 --> 00:25:18.270
you know, I think, you know, for
what happened at MIT, and for

341
00:25:18.270 --> 00:25:22.290
which we're very grateful, Mike
and, and, of course, I mean,

342
00:25:22.290 --> 00:25:25.620
just having you, as a friend and
colleague for all these years

343
00:25:25.620 --> 00:25:30.420
has been tremendously meaningful
to me. And, and, and that's why

344
00:25:30.420 --> 00:25:34.200
it was so important that, you
know, that, that I, I just got

345
00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:38.970
back from a vacation from my
family. And, and I said, Listen,

346
00:25:38.970 --> 00:25:42.720
I somehow I've got to come up
for this, this special occasion

347
00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:46.830
and have a chance to meet my
family and ever and express my

348
00:25:46.830 --> 00:25:52.140
gratitude, because I know,
Karina that he has been helping

349
00:25:52.140 --> 00:25:56.430
so many people and and that
means the absence from from from

350
00:25:56.430 --> 00:26:01.770
his family, and But to the rest
of this has really made a huge

351
00:26:01.770 --> 00:26:04.920
difference in in our prep
professional and personal life.

352
00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:09.750
So it's a great pleasure, Mike
to be here and to be able to

353
00:26:09.750 --> 00:26:12.930
acknowledge, you know, sort of
the wonderful things that you've

354
00:26:12.930 --> 00:26:18.150
done for ourselves and really,
for the community. And it is

355
00:26:18.150 --> 00:26:21.420
this community may have
competitive aspects to it, but

356
00:26:21.630 --> 00:26:25.410
But Mike also helps to draw out
the parts that that's

357
00:26:25.410 --> 00:26:30.030
competition that really makes us
all better, and thinking about

358
00:26:30.030 --> 00:26:35.250
things and really trying to do
our work at this excite in this

359
00:26:35.250 --> 00:26:39.660
exciting field. So I said
enough, thank you for the

360
00:26:39.660 --> 00:26:43.890
opportunity of what we're
phalaris to be able to be here

361
00:26:43.890 --> 00:26:48.720
and and Mike, I'm I'm excited
about thinking about you know, I

362
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:52.200
I was thinking about this is not
his retirement, but his

363
00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:57.300
ascension to the next level. The
question is, what is it going to

364
00:26:57.300 --> 00:27:02.670
be but I can't imagine him not
be deeply involved that Mike and

365
00:27:02.670 --> 00:27:05.820
I've already started talk
talking about cool logarithms

366
00:27:08.310 --> 00:27:15.840
are now rise again and ascend to
the disciples.

367
00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:18.000
Anyway, thanks.

368
00:27:18.360 --> 00:27:21.780
Anyway, so now I know I can go
back to my father.

369
00:27:22.290 --> 00:27:25.590
Yeah, so let's discuss a little
bit the question that I'm

370
00:27:25.590 --> 00:27:29.820
personally interested in,
because for a while, community

371
00:27:29.820 --> 00:27:34.440
had this idea about micro
fusions facility which you know,

372
00:27:34.470 --> 00:27:40.830
had whatever a 10 mega joule
laser right? And of course,

373
00:27:40.950 --> 00:27:44.550
would be nice to hear a comment
from Jeff. So, of course, this

374
00:27:44.550 --> 00:27:48.090
facility was probably only a
fantasy how we go from 10 mega

375
00:27:48.090 --> 00:27:49.740
joules to something I never

376
00:27:50.310 --> 00:27:53.100
actually never understood that
particular view we have we had

377
00:27:53.520 --> 00:27:58.170
okay on how to make that next
step. But there was there was a

378
00:27:58.770 --> 00:28:03.000
bill Hogan needs to show then
that that material there was

379
00:28:03.090 --> 00:28:06.600
there was CSE, we seriously
thought that once we got

380
00:28:06.600 --> 00:28:10.440
ignition, okay, that would be
the stepping stone to micro

381
00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:15.210
fusion. Next Level machines,
okay. When I took over, there

382
00:28:15.210 --> 00:28:19.830
was no intention of getting a 10
mega joule machine was typically

383
00:28:20.130 --> 00:28:25.980
machine to get ignition daily.
But the designs on microfiche

384
00:28:26.070 --> 00:28:27.630
facility is I've met with my

385
00:28:33.750 --> 00:28:37.560
push for a couple reasons. One
of the principal reason was that

386
00:28:37.560 --> 00:28:39.600
at the time we were struggling
to not get hold on is hotter

387
00:28:39.600 --> 00:28:42.480
than about 230 volts. And if you
went through this sort of

388
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:46.950
arguments, then you needed, you
know, a bigger capsule more fit

389
00:28:46.950 --> 00:28:52.020
for PDB or how to get the PDB
that was necessary. And so Joe

390
00:28:52.020 --> 00:28:55.620
can remember this. So we so we
made an effort, how hot can we

391
00:28:55.620 --> 00:29:01.380
make a whole Romanova and we
made a 300 volt forum. And I

392
00:29:01.380 --> 00:29:04.260
remember when I'm with the John
Doe, so we just made 300 volts,

393
00:29:05.280 --> 00:29:09.990
we can get 300 volts we have
with SSD, we only work with SSD.

394
00:29:11.010 --> 00:29:15.810
And that meant a smaller laser
before when I'm talking to

395
00:29:15.810 --> 00:29:19.650
Johnny foster about that. And so
we my argument against Elon that

396
00:29:19.650 --> 00:29:23.730
was too thin was just too big.
And I couldn't imagine you know

397
00:29:23.730 --> 00:29:27.000
building and then as an
experimental experimentalist I

398
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:29.190
Giga Joule of neutrons, you
know, because was something that

399
00:29:29.190 --> 00:29:32.580
was that was would have a gain
of 100 via Giga joule. So,

400
00:29:32.580 --> 00:29:35.070
there's just no way we have no
idea how to make those

401
00:29:35.700 --> 00:29:38.460
that 10 mega joule number just
arbitrary or

402
00:29:38.460 --> 00:29:42.690
it was if you had Homer Mattoon
authority ballgames, they just

403
00:29:42.690 --> 00:29:45.750
extrapolate extrapolation based
on that based on those

404
00:29:45.750 --> 00:29:48.870
temperatures, then we got 300
volts all the sudden, maybe you

405
00:29:48.870 --> 00:29:51.540
do and then Yellin Steve Hahn
did calculations and you'll

406
00:29:51.540 --> 00:29:54.900
invest in stuff and and that's
where the size of NIF came out.

407
00:29:54.900 --> 00:29:59.820
And As Dave said it was or Joe
said the payphone was 1.3

408
00:29:59.820 --> 00:30:02.550
million of yours absorbed by the
target and that's why it was 1.8

409
00:30:02.550 --> 00:30:07.710
mega joule laser skip the 500
kilojoules of extra insurance.

410
00:30:08.700 --> 00:30:12.810
But that's but that's too big,
because we're not told the laser

411
00:30:12.810 --> 00:30:15.360
since no book, there was the
industry had just basically was

412
00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:21.030
there anymore. And it's just
that, you know, we had to and

413
00:30:21.030 --> 00:30:23.220
this is what Joe mentioned this
you know the the miracles of

414
00:30:23.220 --> 00:30:27.240
NIF, we had to invent the
industry for scale. Laser

415
00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:29.730
classically, you know, John
Trenholm, came up with a multi

416
00:30:29.730 --> 00:30:33.780
that architecture, Jack Campbell
work to get manufacturing

417
00:30:33.780 --> 00:30:35.790
electric bicycles. I'd been
through a number if you've taken

418
00:30:35.820 --> 00:30:38.550
Nova, and it would have been two
minutes would have been $25

419
00:30:38.550 --> 00:30:39.750
million. Yeah, it

420
00:30:39.750 --> 00:30:42.570
depends. Yeah. Yeah. So
basically, based on our

421
00:30:42.570 --> 00:30:46.290
experiment, we decided, okay,
maybe 1.3 1.5 mega joules

422
00:30:46.290 --> 00:30:48.420
enough, right? So they came to
you and say, Well, can

423
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:54.030
we build? And sell right? Can
you always design

424
00:30:54.330 --> 00:30:57.540
that was assuming at 50
kilojoules Nova, which we never

425
00:30:57.540 --> 00:30:58.200
really had?

426
00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:07.920
I haven't perspective I'd like
to have your comment on. I'm

427
00:31:08.670 --> 00:31:12.690
pretty sure it was important and
valuable to the program that NIF

428
00:31:12.690 --> 00:31:17.580
did not succeed instantly. I
never was worried that it would.

429
00:31:19.320 --> 00:31:22.050
But I did sit in my office one
day and say to myself, what

430
00:31:22.050 --> 00:31:29.280
happens if we get ignition in
2012? And then we'll add, Moses

431
00:31:29.280 --> 00:31:34.680
will take over, he'll launch an
IFV program that can't possibly

432
00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:38.580
succeed, it'll probably be the
death of Livermore, and maybe

433
00:31:40.170 --> 00:31:45.720
the whole NSA program. If that
if, but, but the fact that it

434
00:31:45.810 --> 00:31:52.200
was so difficult, and the code
didn't get it quite right, was

435
00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:55.590
extremely important. It was
valuable to the stockpile

436
00:31:55.590 --> 00:31:59.790
stewardship program beyond my
expectations, because I always

437
00:31:59.790 --> 00:32:02.250
thought ignition would be
valuable, but the fact that it's

438
00:32:02.250 --> 00:32:05.820
so hard to get to Ignition was
even more valuable. So my

439
00:32:05.820 --> 00:32:10.410
perspective is, is, is good as
in the 60s to quickly, what do

440
00:32:10.410 --> 00:32:10.920
you think?

441
00:32:12.030 --> 00:32:16.680
I agree. And so when I would go
to Congress, and they would ask

442
00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:22.620
me, guarantee it will work. And
my response was, I'll guarantee

443
00:32:22.620 --> 00:32:26.340
you, it'll have a good
experiment, it will work. And

444
00:32:26.370 --> 00:32:29.190
also, if it doesn't, we'll know
what you need to make it work.

445
00:32:29.970 --> 00:32:32.760
And, and I said, but as a
physicist who spent my career in

446
00:32:32.760 --> 00:32:35.580
the program, I think will
achieve ignition, but I'll

447
00:32:35.580 --> 00:32:39.510
probably take close to a decade.
And they said that was fine. You

448
00:32:39.510 --> 00:32:41.880
know, and I got plenty of that,
you know, that was never

449
00:32:42.060 --> 00:32:45.660
testified. But that was always
the discussion. The clay cell

450
00:32:45.660 --> 00:32:49.680
will tell you that, Scott, no,
Scott, Scott was in that

451
00:32:50.220 --> 00:32:55.500
discussion, Alex equipment, and
they bought it. They were not

452
00:32:55.530 --> 00:32:59.160
they would be patient. And
actually when NIF was complete,

453
00:33:00.090 --> 00:33:03.330
and leven will tell you this
story, he told me, George,

454
00:33:03.450 --> 00:33:06.660
justice, science don't make any
promises. There's been enough

455
00:33:06.660 --> 00:33:09.900
problems, justice, science and
the level. And of course, we'll

456
00:33:09.900 --> 00:33:12.150
have ignition in the year and
all the other stuff that came

457
00:33:12.150 --> 00:33:17.340
out from them. As a response by
the leadership of the lab, I had

458
00:33:17.490 --> 00:33:21.780
talked to some of those same
people, and they several times,

459
00:33:22.980 --> 00:33:26.460
tell me, tell me how likely we
are to get ignition, and finally

460
00:33:26.460 --> 00:33:29.790
got an answer from Marshall
Rosenbluth and I use that one. I

461
00:33:29.790 --> 00:33:35.250
said 75%. But I can't tell you
when, because it's a resource.

462
00:33:36.630 --> 00:33:40.440
And then later, Chris Kane was
forced to given a date. And he

463
00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:47.190
gave 2010, I believe. And that
was used against us, of course.

464
00:33:47.520 --> 00:33:52.560
But I think a lot of the
important players knew that this

465
00:33:52.560 --> 00:33:58.710
was not a slam dunk, and that it
was research. And so the fact

466
00:33:58.710 --> 00:34:03.360
that we've gotten to where we
are, is August 8 was redemption

467
00:34:03.360 --> 00:34:08.580
for a lot of us. But I'm
actually grateful that it wasn't

468
00:34:08.580 --> 00:34:09.060
easier.

469
00:34:09.750 --> 00:34:14.430
So I can shed a little light on
that from being in Livermore in

470
00:34:14.430 --> 00:34:19.110
the 2000s. As we built up the
machine, and the number of times

471
00:34:19.110 --> 00:34:24.540
I send Babs, back scatter
station, because why do we need

472
00:34:25.110 --> 00:34:28.530
diagnostic to measure scattered
light because, you know,

473
00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:32.160
essentially, the, the pitch was
we just need a neutron detector.

474
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:36.930
And so you know, and we'll be
done. And I can, you know, I

475
00:34:36.930 --> 00:34:39.720
should go back and pull view
graphs, but literally, it felt

476
00:34:39.720 --> 00:34:43.500
like every third month, I was
standing up in front of, you

477
00:34:43.500 --> 00:34:46.650
know, certain people I want to
talk about that, you know, to

478
00:34:46.650 --> 00:34:51.660
try to justify all of these sets
of diagnostics and, you know,

479
00:34:51.660 --> 00:34:54.450
saying, you know, we're gonna
need to understand why it's not

480
00:34:54.450 --> 00:34:57.900
working. It took many years for
that again.

481
00:34:59.100 --> 00:35:01.950
It was there were so many
Usually when I remember MEPs

482
00:35:01.950 --> 00:35:05.640
meeting, we had a meeting.
Because we were hearing, there's

483
00:35:05.640 --> 00:35:10.740
lots of optics damage. And we
were already doing LPI. And so

484
00:35:10.740 --> 00:35:16.440
we had this Wheaton had been in
APs. It was, you know, Rob

485
00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:20.850
Schneider was there myself
contains live adult. And so it

486
00:35:20.850 --> 00:35:27.540
starts off, and the NIF director
at the time says it at once in

487
00:35:27.540 --> 00:35:32.280
adoptee standards, there's an
optics damage. Over here,

488
00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:37.350
there's optics damage, there's
no optics damage. And so, to

489
00:35:37.350 --> 00:35:42.030
recap, so go into LPI. And fight
you guys worry about LPA There's

490
00:35:43.830 --> 00:35:47.010
me said, even if you're right,
you know, we worry that the next

491
00:35:47.010 --> 00:35:49.950
jewel going in, you know, you're
a hockey curve. Next, you're

492
00:35:49.950 --> 00:35:52.740
gonna, you know, you start
having all these problems. And,

493
00:35:52.890 --> 00:35:55.110
you know, we need to diagnostics
we need to understand where

494
00:35:55.110 --> 00:35:58.950
we're, there's not the no LPI.
So we go in this noi LPI. One.

495
00:35:59.730 --> 00:36:02.850
And then we say something about
bombs, if you're talking about

496
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:06.210
laser energy. And this is what
we won't be doing that because

497
00:36:06.210 --> 00:36:07.140
of the optics damage.

498
00:36:12.210 --> 00:36:18.150
It was, you know, 2009 ish, were
turning the laser on into

499
00:36:18.150 --> 00:36:21.750
learning to do explosions, and,
you know, implosion number one

500
00:36:21.750 --> 00:36:26.550
comes out like this, and, and
it's like, Oh, my God, we can't

501
00:36:26.550 --> 00:36:29.190
redesign and repoint the whole
run fast enough to make it

502
00:36:29.190 --> 00:36:32.250
round, what are we going to do?
And, you know, and it's like,

503
00:36:32.250 --> 00:36:36.060
okay, we, you know, some of
these LPI people convinced us to

504
00:36:36.060 --> 00:36:39.810
put some wavelength detuning.
And that was a battle. That was

505
00:36:39.810 --> 00:36:45.090
a huge battle in 2000 2002 ish
timeframe, to convince the

506
00:36:45.120 --> 00:36:50.790
powers that be to, to make sure
we can do it. And wow, that was

507
00:36:50.790 --> 00:36:55.950
a pretty intense month of men
from you know, this to last.

508
00:36:56.790 --> 00:36:59.820
Yeah, so I think they've asked a
really good question. So I

509
00:36:59.820 --> 00:37:04.920
wonder if Mark, still in line
and can share his thoughts about

510
00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:09.090
it? Was it a good thing for our
community that it took so long?

511
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:15.300
Not till August last year to get
ignition? Well,

512
00:37:15.330 --> 00:37:22.500
I mean, I think that the good
thing was that, you know, at as

513
00:37:22.500 --> 00:37:28.350
Nick ended, and it was clear, we
were very far away. That what

514
00:37:28.350 --> 00:37:33.150
what happened next, right, which
was a huge effort, you know, Joe

515
00:37:33.180 --> 00:37:37.650
leading the charge on, we need
better diagnostics. Right. So So

516
00:37:37.650 --> 00:37:41.970
I guess, you know, and then, you
know, a series of with the whole

517
00:37:41.970 --> 00:37:47.700
community working together to
develop, you know, better than

518
00:37:47.700 --> 00:37:50.880
ever diagnostics. And, and then,
of course, you know, those

519
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:54.330
diagnostics pointed to the
problems we have with with the

520
00:37:54.330 --> 00:37:58.440
targets, and that led to better
target. So, and, you know, so I

521
00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:03.510
think, absolutely, the fact that
we had a lot to learn, it was

522
00:38:03.510 --> 00:38:06.720
really good, right, we learned a
lot from, from having to dig in

523
00:38:06.720 --> 00:38:10.530
more and understand the science
better. So I think that, you

524
00:38:10.530 --> 00:38:14.250
know, would have liked to happen
sooner, of course, but, but the

525
00:38:14.310 --> 00:38:18.330
but what, really the response of
the Great.

526
00:38:20.100 --> 00:38:23.160
Thanks, Mark, what about you,
John, what do you think?

527
00:38:23.940 --> 00:38:27.900
So I kind of agree with Mark. I
mean, I think if we had gotten

528
00:38:27.900 --> 00:38:30.240
in 2012, that would have been
great, because we would have

529
00:38:30.240 --> 00:38:33.690
moved on to do other things. But
I think even though that we

530
00:38:33.690 --> 00:38:37.020
didn't, I think there was a lot
that we learned, I guess that

531
00:38:37.020 --> 00:38:41.580
the amount of diagnostics we
have now are amazing. The things

532
00:38:41.580 --> 00:38:43.890
we can do that we couldn't do,
and that we wouldn't have

533
00:38:43.890 --> 00:38:46.980
probably done if we hadn't
needed them right, then.

534
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:50.700
Necessity is the mother of
invention. And I think that

535
00:38:50.700 --> 00:38:54.150
pushed a lot. But I think if we
had gotten there, we would have,

536
00:38:54.180 --> 00:38:56.220
we would have found other
challenges that would have

537
00:38:56.220 --> 00:39:01.980
pushed us as well, that would
have done it. So I think either

538
00:39:01.980 --> 00:39:06.750
way, the whole exercise is is
extremely valuable for the

539
00:39:06.750 --> 00:39:12.750
country. Because it pushes areas
of our codes that that we

540
00:39:12.750 --> 00:39:15.600
wouldn't otherwise be able to
push with, we didn't have these

541
00:39:15.600 --> 00:39:20.130
facilities to be able to do it.
So so. So I don't have a strong

542
00:39:20.130 --> 00:39:23.280
opinion whether it would work or
not. But I think what we did,

543
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:27.810
and the response after it didn't
work in 2012 Mark is spot on. It

544
00:39:27.810 --> 00:39:31.890
led to a lot of really
innovative thinking a lot more

545
00:39:31.890 --> 00:39:36.120
learning about the codes. And as
we bashed the codes constantly

546
00:39:36.120 --> 00:39:39.000
and how bad they were. It turned
out that you know, they probably

547
00:39:39.030 --> 00:39:41.760
weren't, they weren't as bad as
we thought they were. We just

548
00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:44.490
weren't modeling what we had
because of the fidelity and our

549
00:39:44.490 --> 00:39:47.640
ability. So I think this has
taught us a lot of valuable

550
00:39:47.640 --> 00:39:52.080
lessons that we can use now for
stockpile stewardship and the

551
00:39:52.080 --> 00:39:55.740
facility has succeeded in what
it set out to do in the mid 90s.

552
00:39:55.740 --> 00:39:58.920
To understand what it would take
to get ignition begat ignition

553
00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:01.830
so we know what it takes We have
a next step, which is one of

554
00:40:01.830 --> 00:40:04.830
your future questions, what do
we need to do next? And I think

555
00:40:05.070 --> 00:40:08.430
we're in a perfect position to
be able to get everything out of

556
00:40:08.490 --> 00:40:13.470
out of NIF that we need to learn
for how it would play in and

557
00:40:13.470 --> 00:40:16.620
next generation HDD for
stockpile stewardship. So I

558
00:40:16.620 --> 00:40:18.780
think we've greatly succeeded.

559
00:40:22.260 --> 00:40:25.020
Thanks, John. Chris, you want to
share anything I'm

560
00:40:25.020 --> 00:40:31.380
not agree, I think the one of
the purposes of nuclear testing

561
00:40:31.380 --> 00:40:34.980
in the day, and the hydro
experiments went along with

562
00:40:35.010 --> 00:40:42.210
everything else was to teach
designers humility. Because, you

563
00:40:42.210 --> 00:40:45.900
know, you basically learn from
the experiment where your code

564
00:40:45.900 --> 00:40:52.080
was doing well, but it wasn't.
And so the journey or NIF, it

565
00:40:53.100 --> 00:40:57.150
has been a great lesson for us
all on, you know, how much you

566
00:40:57.150 --> 00:41:00.390
can believe the code, how much
you need diagnostics, and how

567
00:41:00.390 --> 00:41:04.380
hard it is to continually prove
the physics. But we've done it,

568
00:41:04.410 --> 00:41:06.480
you know, and we, you know, we
continue to improve and there is

569
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:10.380
no doubt in my mind that all the
other countries that look at

570
00:41:10.410 --> 00:41:14.940
what we do in the US are
astounded by the progress that

571
00:41:14.940 --> 00:41:17.220
has been, you know, we're
probably the only country that

572
00:41:17.220 --> 00:41:23.850
thought we could do it quickly.
But the progress has been, you

573
00:41:23.850 --> 00:41:24.960
know, has been amazing.

574
00:41:27.900 --> 00:41:31.530
I just want to comment that I
listened to Annie Prichard

575
00:41:31.560 --> 00:41:35.790
describe how she designed the
experiment that succeeded. So

576
00:41:35.790 --> 00:41:42.000
well. Obviously. It's exactly
the same process. And the same

577
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:46.560
kinds of challenges as a nuclear
weapons had Iran faces in an

578
00:41:46.560 --> 00:41:52.020
underground test. It's a lot
harder. And I said that to Omar

579
00:41:52.020 --> 00:41:55.860
quit hurricane. He couldn't
agree more. It's the same

580
00:41:55.860 --> 00:42:02.820
process. And it really has
started, I think, to bridge the

581
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:06.060
gap between the weapons program
and the laser program in new

582
00:42:06.060 --> 00:42:09.120
ways. Good, thanks.

583
00:42:09.570 --> 00:42:13.560
For the last 20 minutes I want
to discuss what is the future

584
00:42:13.560 --> 00:42:19.140
right. So what is the next step?
Or Christine? Sorry, Chris. Yes,

585
00:42:19.320 --> 00:42:20.940
please. Christine?

586
00:42:22.650 --> 00:42:27.660
Yeah. Hey, everyone. Yeah. So
let's see. Yeah, I just, I think

587
00:42:27.690 --> 00:42:30.030
just integrated with some of the
things we were just wanting to

588
00:42:30.030 --> 00:42:32.370
point it out. I mean, always,
when I describe the program, the

589
00:42:32.370 --> 00:42:35.280
strength of the programs, its
ability to respond and solve the

590
00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:38.670
problems that it finds, right.
And I think we're all saying

591
00:42:38.670 --> 00:42:41.190
that the same way in data
editing is I don't recall seeing

592
00:42:41.190 --> 00:42:44.760
ignition in 2010, but rather
ready to do ignition experiments

593
00:42:44.760 --> 00:42:47.580
in that 10 to 12 timeframe. Just
wanted to be clear about that.

594
00:42:47.790 --> 00:42:56.790
Okay. I think it's 2010 is just
nuts. That's nuts.

595
00:43:00.720 --> 00:43:04.290
Well, I think you were forced,
and even then you just you

596
00:43:04.290 --> 00:43:06.720
probably didn't say what was
reported back? Yeah.

597
00:43:06.930 --> 00:43:10.170
No, it's ready to do
experiments. They're not frickin

598
00:43:10.170 --> 00:43:11.940
get success. That's just stupid.

599
00:43:18.150 --> 00:43:21.270
I will defend my my brother
Chris keyed on this one. Because

600
00:43:21.270 --> 00:43:25.860
yeah, it was the the earliest
credible attempt on Ignition

601
00:43:25.860 --> 00:43:27.720
mirrors scheduled for 2010.

602
00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:30.780
Yeah, that's what it was kind of
similar. But that was a

603
00:43:30.780 --> 00:43:31.950
milestone. 2012

604
00:43:31.950 --> 00:43:35.760
was, you know, then. And that's
another funny story about, you

605
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:43.770
know, go back to the naming. So
winning initially, were really

606
00:43:43.770 --> 00:43:46.110
wasn't clear on what's gonna
happen. You know, we're weeks

607
00:43:46.110 --> 00:43:52.350
away from the, you know, 20 Then
there's the, the Nick Saban def

608
00:43:52.350 --> 00:43:57.690
director came to me and said, I
don't know why people are upset,

609
00:43:57.690 --> 00:44:03.630
we're not gonna get ignition.
Anybody upset it took so long to

610
00:44:03.630 --> 00:44:08.550
find the Higgs boson. Right?
Because I mean, barely. She's,

611
00:44:08.580 --> 00:44:10.860
you know, we've got the legs,
boys on nodes. And nobody's seen

612
00:44:10.860 --> 00:44:14.550
the Higgs boson was late. And I
looked, I looked. And I looked

613
00:44:14.550 --> 00:44:18.180
over said, yes, the Higgs boson
was discovered in the Large

614
00:44:18.180 --> 00:44:22.200
Hadron Collider, I think called
the Large Hadron Collider. The

615
00:44:22.200 --> 00:44:24.900
Higgs Boson factory. Yeah, maybe
let

616
00:44:28.110 --> 00:44:31.080
me make one other comment. And
this is on behalf of Kimberly

617
00:44:31.080 --> 00:44:35.490
dill. She doesn't know that. I'm
gonna say this. But she won't

618
00:44:35.490 --> 00:44:41.310
object. She and Mike together
make a wonderful team, because

619
00:44:41.340 --> 00:44:45.780
they're both very positive and
open and can always find the

620
00:44:45.780 --> 00:44:51.150
good stuff. But she said to me,
and I think Mike was actually

621
00:44:51.150 --> 00:44:55.470
there. I always love having Mike
in any of the discussions I'm

622
00:44:55.470 --> 00:44:59.970
having on serious problems or
issues. He is the social glue

623
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:06.540
lubricant always gets people to
grapple with the problem.

624
00:45:07.890 --> 00:45:11.520
Alright, so let's, let's look at
the future. What do we want to

625
00:45:11.520 --> 00:45:18.090
see for ICF happening in the
next decade? So, Mike, let's

626
00:45:18.090 --> 00:45:20.160
start with your what's your
vision for?

627
00:45:20.730 --> 00:45:24.810
Well, I think there, there are
two things, two ways to look at

628
00:45:24.810 --> 00:45:28.650
this. I'm a big believer that
the program, despite all the

629
00:45:28.650 --> 00:45:32.820
progress is data start. We don't
have enough opportunities to try

630
00:45:32.820 --> 00:45:36.960
new things. We don't have enough
opportunities, statistics, we

631
00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:40.110
don't have opportunities to use
modern algorithms, machine

632
00:45:40.110 --> 00:45:43.440
learning, because we still have
enough data. And I think we need

633
00:45:43.470 --> 00:45:47.070
somebody that can get give us
hundreds of complex experiments

634
00:45:47.070 --> 00:45:51.180
a week. And I think we have to
technology just to do that, walk

635
00:45:51.180 --> 00:45:54.480
your project fabrication to be
able to do that. But there's no,

636
00:45:54.810 --> 00:45:57.600
I don't use any obstacles to be
able to do that, except finding

637
00:45:57.600 --> 00:46:00.600
the money and everything else. I
think I think the committee

638
00:46:00.600 --> 00:46:03.090
really really desperately needs
that. Of course, the other thing

639
00:46:03.090 --> 00:46:07.590
is to continue to learn on this,
about getting a robust ignition

640
00:46:07.590 --> 00:46:11.940
platform, understand what it
takes to do it, and then begin

641
00:46:11.940 --> 00:46:15.150
to plan longer term for a very
high yield facility for the

642
00:46:15.150 --> 00:46:18.750
weapons program, which again, by
definition, would be something

643
00:46:18.750 --> 00:46:22.020
that would not fire very often
does it because it costs

644
00:46:22.020 --> 00:46:23.880
expense. So those two things
together, I think, are the

645
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:26.520
parallel things that has to be
done. And whether it's a laser

646
00:46:26.520 --> 00:46:28.860
or pulse farmers unite, that's
got to be decided over the next

647
00:46:28.860 --> 00:46:32.100
number of years. But I think
that there's so both of those

648
00:46:32.100 --> 00:46:35.580
things are required. And, of
course, there's ever going to be

649
00:46:35.580 --> 00:46:38.970
an ISP program. And, you know,
we all know how hard that is

650
00:46:38.970 --> 00:46:44.160
going to say syncfusion energy.
You know, that's, I think that,

651
00:46:44.190 --> 00:46:47.940
you know, I'm always worried
that people forget, you know,

652
00:46:47.940 --> 00:46:52.020
physics and navy, main thing,
economic powers and other things

653
00:46:52.020 --> 00:46:55.890
much, much, much, much harder.
And, but if we ever want to

654
00:46:56.130 --> 00:46:58.410
eventually have fusion, I think
eventually we'll have fusion. I

655
00:46:58.410 --> 00:47:01.830
mean, we know nuclear energy is
great, but it has its issues,

656
00:47:01.950 --> 00:47:04.650
you know, it's gonna run out of
fuel, see all hundreds, I mean,

657
00:47:04.890 --> 00:47:06.930
fusion eventually will be the
power source, and we'll plant

658
00:47:07.200 --> 00:47:10.140
will power the planet and
central power, but it's gonna

659
00:47:10.140 --> 00:47:12.990
take a long time. And you need a
facility like I just talked

660
00:47:12.990 --> 00:47:17.220
about, but there are hundreds of
times a week to be able to get

661
00:47:17.220 --> 00:47:20.160
the database to be able to
figure out what's best. So I

662
00:47:20.160 --> 00:47:23.070
think those are two things that
need to be done. And as we've

663
00:47:23.100 --> 00:47:25.770
talked about here, I look
forward to helping make that

664
00:47:25.770 --> 00:47:30.300
happen. Great, what's your take
on the future?

665
00:47:30.330 --> 00:47:35.220
No, I'm so ready. That would
make I think the back to the LMS

666
00:47:35.220 --> 00:47:41.640
in this discussion. I mean, we
know that if you have lots and

667
00:47:41.640 --> 00:47:45.390
lots and lots of energy, we
don't need to be as precise.

668
00:47:45.540 --> 00:47:47.490
Right? And so the big bet

669
00:47:47.970 --> 00:47:50.910
is, you'll be as laser in
plasma. Yeah, exactly.

670
00:47:51.600 --> 00:47:55.200
So the big bet nation tip was
could you go way up and

671
00:47:55.200 --> 00:47:59.160
precision and try to make it
work at significantly less

672
00:47:59.160 --> 00:48:02.880
energy? And we're on the verge
of showing you that can happen?

673
00:48:03.930 --> 00:48:07.620
I think no, the discussion will
be as it becomes more robust and

674
00:48:07.620 --> 00:48:12.330
more showing that, you know, the
next scale the Z scale, a Omegas

675
00:48:12.540 --> 00:48:15.180
are providing, you know,
fantastic datasets to the

676
00:48:15.180 --> 00:48:18.360
community. The question is, what
was what's the nation going to

677
00:48:18.360 --> 00:48:22.020
do to go back up in energy, and
pick a point where you get to

678
00:48:22.020 --> 00:48:25.500
that large output, you know,
maybe as 100 baggers, or maybe

679
00:48:25.500 --> 00:48:29.010
as a gig, but you know, there's
somewhere in that space, I think

680
00:48:29.040 --> 00:48:33.120
we end up we have to be, you
know, certainly an, you know, we

681
00:48:33.120 --> 00:48:35.280
need to be there retrospectives
anniversary of the last

682
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:39.450
underground nuclear test, that's
only 20 years away. So we'll be

683
00:48:39.450 --> 00:48:40.350
we got to be thinking about

684
00:48:44.490 --> 00:48:48.600
if any comments about the nature
of that laser to do a hundreds

685
00:48:48.600 --> 00:48:52.290
per week, today, right, so this
was a

686
00:48:53.850 --> 00:48:57.000
shoot every five minutes, but
I'm not gonna John's a little

687
00:48:57.030 --> 00:49:01.590
many years ago, came up with
accurate cooling, active cooling

688
00:49:01.590 --> 00:49:05.370
flashlight pump lasers. And so I
think it's a measure that has to

689
00:49:05.370 --> 00:49:09.300
be LPI free. So work that Dustin
his team, to make sure that we

690
00:49:09.300 --> 00:49:13.350
understand the physics so that
we can make ICF a hydro problem,

691
00:49:13.350 --> 00:49:16.470
not an LPI plus hybrid problem.
So it's got to be an LPR three

692
00:49:16.470 --> 00:49:20.970
laser. And I think there that
will, hopefully over the next I

693
00:49:21.150 --> 00:49:24.060
don't know, the next corporate
agreement and Rochester will la

694
00:49:24.060 --> 00:49:27.210
will determine what's required.
And then design the ledger that

695
00:49:27.210 --> 00:49:30.360
can do that, that put an
exclamation point on the E plus

696
00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:33.240
years and to get there right in
the history of the program has

697
00:49:33.240 --> 00:49:38.400
been how to invent technologies
like good fit and LPI with LPI

698
00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:44.580
Free Radio. So Dave, I think you
know, what I hope happens over

699
00:49:44.580 --> 00:49:49.050
them this decade is that that's
such a such a facility is

700
00:49:49.050 --> 00:49:51.660
designed and the target
application has to come along

701
00:49:51.660 --> 00:49:58.290
with it because you can't do it
right now with so many of Larry

702
00:49:58.290 --> 00:50:03.900
has some very innovative ideas.
have targets, they can't get

703
00:50:03.900 --> 00:50:06.180
tested, you know, we'll never
get tested enough to refine

704
00:50:06.180 --> 00:50:08.280
them. Because it's such a
challenge. Ricardo has been

705
00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:11.670
doing wonderful work in the
statistical modeling. But you

706
00:50:11.670 --> 00:50:13.890
know, it'd be nice to complain
to me all the time, there's not

707
00:50:13.890 --> 00:50:17.640
enough data, not enough shots,
you know, and so we needed so

708
00:50:17.670 --> 00:50:20.640
that's all they can do that to
do statistics to try new ideas

709
00:50:20.850 --> 00:50:25.650
and to refine them. And and I
think you want to make the laser

710
00:50:25.650 --> 00:50:30.240
big enough that just physics is
scalable to whatever size

711
00:50:30.240 --> 00:50:35.010
machine you want afterwards. And
so whether it's a no, I think

712
00:50:35.010 --> 00:50:37.620
that's what has to be determined
over the next number of years,

713
00:50:37.680 --> 00:50:42.330
how big Mossad laser that fires
hundreds of times a week, I

714
00:50:42.330 --> 00:50:45.840
would count to be able to be
more sensitive and such, how big

715
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:48.840
others are, must be, and I think
the work that's being done here

716
00:50:48.840 --> 00:50:50.460
and elsewhere will help define
what that is.

717
00:50:51.570 --> 00:50:54.930
Mark? Mark, what is your take on
the future?

718
00:50:56.490 --> 00:51:01.920
Yeah, so I think I, there's a
lot of what's been said that I

719
00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:05.790
agree with the I think, I think
about this, through the lens of

720
00:51:05.790 --> 00:51:10.710
where this overall deterrent is
going, and what's going on in

721
00:51:10.710 --> 00:51:15.180
the world today. And, you know,
we're getting the world's

722
00:51:15.180 --> 00:51:19.380
getting more dangerous, and our
technological leadership

723
00:51:19.740 --> 00:51:25.980
challenged, right, in a way that
really, perhaps hasn't been, you

724
00:51:25.980 --> 00:51:31.680
know, maybe ever and, and so, to
me, that helps, you know,

725
00:51:32.130 --> 00:51:37.110
clarify what, what, what we need
next to do our job. And, and

726
00:51:37.110 --> 00:51:40.560
that really, is to get get to
high yield, so that we can

727
00:51:40.560 --> 00:51:44.700
really answer all the questions
that we could get asked around.

728
00:51:46.140 --> 00:51:49.080
Maintaining the deterrent
without without further testing.

729
00:51:50.220 --> 00:51:53.550
We're going you know, our, our
job is getting more challenging

730
00:51:53.550 --> 00:51:56.520
as the as we go longer and
longer since that last test to

731
00:51:56.520 --> 00:52:00.030
someone mentioned, right, we're
approaching three years and the

732
00:52:00.030 --> 00:52:02.370
questions are getting harder,
the changes we have to make to

733
00:52:02.370 --> 00:52:06.120
the weapons are getting more
involved more complicated. You

734
00:52:06.120 --> 00:52:10.500
can't reconstitute the
manufacturing techniques we had

735
00:52:10.500 --> 00:52:15.780
in the past. And so we're going
to continue to be challenged on

736
00:52:15.780 --> 00:52:18.420
Why should I trust you? Why
should I believe you? Why should

737
00:52:18.450 --> 00:52:21.480
Why should I have confidence in
the deterrent? Why should our

738
00:52:21.510 --> 00:52:25.890
allies have confidence in the
deterrent? Why should our

739
00:52:25.890 --> 00:52:29.370
adversaries really trust that
our deterrent will will work if

740
00:52:29.370 --> 00:52:31.890
we ever if we ever need to use
it, which we of course never

741
00:52:31.890 --> 00:52:36.300
want to do? So. Again, to me
that points towards high yield.

742
00:52:36.990 --> 00:52:41.880
As a we talked a lot about here,
right? I think that, again, my

743
00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:45.690
perspective on this is that both
horsepower and lasers are

744
00:52:46.140 --> 00:52:50.790
important. We need both in the
program. So I see a future where

745
00:52:50.820 --> 00:52:55.380
where we carry both of those
forward. I think right now, we

746
00:52:55.380 --> 00:52:57.840
don't know how to build a high
yield facility, we don't know

747
00:52:57.840 --> 00:53:00.450
how big it needs to be, we don't
know how to deal with the

748
00:53:00.450 --> 00:53:04.020
output. We have very limited
data with mega joule right,

749
00:53:04.020 --> 00:53:07.200
thinking about hundreds of mega
joules or Giga joule. And how we

750
00:53:07.200 --> 00:53:10.590
deal with that is, is really
quite complicated. So I think

751
00:53:10.590 --> 00:53:16.320
the next step is, you know, both
pushing forward with lasers,

752
00:53:16.320 --> 00:53:20.010
where we're getting more
confidence in what will be

753
00:53:20.010 --> 00:53:24.390
required to get to high yield
with lasers. And with pulsed

754
00:53:24.390 --> 00:53:28.590
power, taking the next step so
that we can get more confidence

755
00:53:28.590 --> 00:53:31.080
with pulse power on what would
be required to get to high

756
00:53:31.080 --> 00:53:34.650
yield. So I think that that's
really, maybe the next decade or

757
00:53:34.650 --> 00:53:39.900
15 years. And then beyond that,
setting the stage for for high

758
00:53:39.900 --> 00:53:43.920
yield capability. I'll just the
only thing I'd say is that, you

759
00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:46.410
know, of course, EGD is
ubiquitous. And we're, you know,

760
00:53:46.590 --> 00:53:49.020
we're going to continue to
expand the platforms on which

761
00:53:49.020 --> 00:53:53.370
we're studying ATD. I think the
X ray light sources are an

762
00:53:53.370 --> 00:53:56.340
incredible opportunity also to
look at, you know, replicated

763
00:53:56.340 --> 00:53:59.130
data and material properties in
these extreme conditions. And so

764
00:53:59.130 --> 00:54:01.320
I see that is a big part of the
future, too.

765
00:54:02.550 --> 00:54:05.820
Thanks. Yeah. Thanks, Mark.
John, your turn.

766
00:54:06.450 --> 00:54:11.130
So I think I think most of it's
been covered, I will take, you

767
00:54:11.130 --> 00:54:15.240
know, my opportunity here as the
co chair for the basic research

768
00:54:15.270 --> 00:54:20.580
needs, compression and burn
section with Omar, that based on

769
00:54:20.580 --> 00:54:23.130
everyone to say, I'm going to
dive into the weeds a little bit

770
00:54:23.130 --> 00:54:26.160
and say, We need to be able to,
in order to get the high gains,

771
00:54:26.160 --> 00:54:28.590
we need to get the high
compression, it's going to be a

772
00:54:28.590 --> 00:54:31.890
combination of technologies,
beating down LPI all the things

773
00:54:31.890 --> 00:54:35.400
that have mentioned and
recreate. But I think a couple

774
00:54:35.400 --> 00:54:38.130
things that haven't been
mentioned is our continuing and

775
00:54:38.130 --> 00:54:43.650
diagnostics to go more to get
even better time resolution, but

776
00:54:43.860 --> 00:54:47.280
also that 3d measurements
because a lot of our HP

777
00:54:47.280 --> 00:54:53.490
experiments, I think up till now
have have been, you know,

778
00:54:53.490 --> 00:54:56.100
hampered by the fact that you
usually use a projection in one

779
00:54:56.100 --> 00:55:00.000
direction or something. And then
you can't always discern what

780
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:03.210
Whether it's a 3d effect or
physics, it's causing you to not

781
00:55:03.210 --> 00:55:06.150
be able to model something. So I
think that becomes an important

782
00:55:06.150 --> 00:55:09.810
aspect going forward to be able
to utilize our HTT experiments

783
00:55:09.810 --> 00:55:13.950
better. And so I think that is
going to be a very big important

784
00:55:13.950 --> 00:55:17.280
thing. And then one of my
biggest soapbox lately is trying

785
00:55:17.280 --> 00:55:22.890
to make it so that we can get
these databases of, of the data

786
00:55:22.890 --> 00:55:26.340
we already have or the data, we
take it so that they so that the

787
00:55:26.340 --> 00:55:29.190
collective set of data, even
though we might be data limited,

788
00:55:29.400 --> 00:55:33.540
we can build bigger collective
databases on different topics

789
00:55:34.170 --> 00:55:36.720
that we can share in our
modeling, because I think a lot

790
00:55:36.720 --> 00:55:40.560
of times, we'll model an
experiment or two, and the codes

791
00:55:40.560 --> 00:55:44.670
can match that. But then they
don't match all the other

792
00:55:44.670 --> 00:55:47.970
experiments. So you're ignoring
other opportunities to constrain

793
00:55:47.970 --> 00:55:51.300
your modeling. So you can learn
more from the data we do have.

794
00:55:51.630 --> 00:55:54.540
And I think those are areas that
we can improve on. And we'll

795
00:55:54.780 --> 00:55:57.570
we'll start to improve on as we
improve these facilities. And

796
00:55:58.260 --> 00:56:01.110
when you combine that with high
high rep rate, you're going to

797
00:56:01.110 --> 00:56:06.390
have amazing data to be able to
try to understand the physics

798
00:56:06.390 --> 00:56:11.160
that you're missing to very high
fidelity codes that really, I

799
00:56:11.160 --> 00:56:15.180
think will be tools that will be
the envy of the world. And be

800
00:56:15.240 --> 00:56:18.600
make us like I said, leading the
stockpile stewardship, because

801
00:56:19.170 --> 00:56:22.200
we can run big codes, but we
need to know that those big

802
00:56:22.200 --> 00:56:25.950
codes are right. And I think the
work here and these facilities

803
00:56:25.950 --> 00:56:30.690
and pulse power laser are our
avenue for the high energy

804
00:56:30.690 --> 00:56:34.110
density science to be able to
show that we know what we're

805
00:56:34.110 --> 00:56:37.860
doing, and train people. So
those things have been said. So

806
00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:42.480
except for adding 3d and bigger
databases. I think I didn't say

807
00:56:42.480 --> 00:56:44.880
anything that hasn't been
covered, because we're all on

808
00:56:44.880 --> 00:56:45.630
the same page.

809
00:56:47.490 --> 00:56:51.330
Yeah, thanks. Thanks, John.
Well, since rich have been

810
00:56:51.330 --> 00:56:55.590
promoted to panel members, why
don't you share your

811
00:56:59.430 --> 00:57:04.740
note about the future or the
past and the future? But you

812
00:57:04.740 --> 00:57:07.740
know, one of the things that I
really, I mean, there's a reason

813
00:57:07.740 --> 00:57:12.840
we call like poor pause. That's
just because he's involved in so

814
00:57:12.840 --> 00:57:16.650
much. But it's, you know, one of
the things he's really good at

815
00:57:16.650 --> 00:57:21.330
doing folks know, is it's really
integrating things, experiment

816
00:57:21.390 --> 00:57:24.270
and simulation and getting
people to talk to each other.

817
00:57:24.750 --> 00:57:28.650
And I can't help but reflect
back to the first layer shots in

818
00:57:28.650 --> 00:57:35.790
the rock on Dustin in general,
if he was there at the time. And

819
00:57:36.780 --> 00:57:43.140
it was interesting to see, we
were out there who said what the

820
00:57:43.140 --> 00:57:52.680
EU is for. And the Cirrus. All
had the number of around 760.

821
00:57:54.390 --> 00:58:11.520
Okay, and that's simulation
experimentalist? Yeah, because

822
00:58:13.560 --> 00:58:17.550
there was a board in the hall,
people could write their names

823
00:58:17.550 --> 00:58:19.800
and the number and I'm gonna say
people decided it wasn't

824
00:58:22.290 --> 00:58:28.980
your calling to make sure, we're
not making phone numbers.

825
00:58:30.990 --> 00:58:36.360
But I do think pulling this back
in is that no, I think that was

826
00:58:37.050 --> 00:58:40.770
one of the Mike's great
strengths is getting people to

827
00:58:40.770 --> 00:58:45.870
really talk and think about it
from a bigger perspective and

828
00:58:45.870 --> 00:58:50.820
whatever. But I think my sense
that others may disagree with

829
00:58:50.820 --> 00:58:56.340
me, but but simulation was just
so much driving program that has

830
00:58:56.340 --> 00:59:02.280
so much confidence, and I think
maybe the word Musa Chris, I

831
00:59:02.280 --> 00:59:03.570
think it's talking about

832
00:59:05.040 --> 00:59:07.080
humility, or the lack thereof.

833
00:59:11.520 --> 00:59:15.750
That was one of Mike's great
strengths is that getting people

834
00:59:15.750 --> 00:59:19.020
to sort of really think about
things from the detail to the

835
00:59:19.020 --> 00:59:24.030
big picture. And and so his
vision is important. I

836
00:59:24.030 --> 00:59:27.090
know, Dustin, I just made me
think of something because I

837
00:59:27.090 --> 00:59:29.820
think it's one of the things
Mike did early on when he first

838
00:59:29.820 --> 00:59:35.310
arrived at Livermore was to
wrestle that concept away from

839
00:59:35.310 --> 00:59:38.730
the designers and put an
experimental program in place

840
00:59:38.730 --> 00:59:42.480
and I think we heard about that
in the early days. Right? And

841
00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:45.030
interestingly enough, as you
moved away from some of the

842
00:59:45.030 --> 00:59:48.450
program it we got sucked back
into that place and, and

843
00:59:48.450 --> 00:59:53.430
struggled to to have enough
experimental voices there to put

844
00:59:53.430 --> 00:59:56.910
some reason that's very, very
true. I mean, the program

845
00:59:56.910 --> 00:59:59.730
historically because modeling
nuclear experiments were so

846
01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:05.460
expensive, and experimental just
became diagnosticians and

847
01:00:05.460 --> 01:00:09.930
project managers. And the lead
was in the designers. So I first

848
01:00:09.930 --> 01:00:15.900
went live in where I was just
make measurements. And there was

849
01:00:15.930 --> 01:00:19.290
probably a third of the theory
group or fellows of the APS. And

850
01:00:19.290 --> 01:00:22.890
there was zero. And experiments,
there was one experimentalist,

851
01:00:22.890 --> 01:00:28.380
who was a fellow the APS. So, so
I became the first one, and

852
01:00:28.410 --> 01:00:34.260
they'll pour the theorists put
me in. So no, that was actually

853
01:00:34.260 --> 01:00:36.540
right, those days and LPI
theories. So yeah.

854
01:00:37.650 --> 01:00:40.800
I'd like to ask a question about
people who are knowledgeable in

855
01:00:40.830 --> 01:00:44.010
logic, logically go to Mark
Herman, but he gets held to an

856
01:00:44.010 --> 01:00:49.530
answer, held for his answer, no
matter what. What do we think

857
01:00:49.530 --> 01:00:54.480
NIF could achieve in terms of
yield or gain? What's the best

858
01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:59.580
we could hope for? So the person
I'd like to ask is, Is John,

859
01:01:00.480 --> 01:01:03.270
because he won't be punished for
it?

860
01:01:04.980 --> 01:01:08.940
Well, that's that's because
that's because I'm, I'm well

861
01:01:08.940 --> 01:01:12.300
known for saying what I think
before I and often saying it

862
01:01:12.300 --> 01:01:19.560
before I think about it, so you
better say quick. Yeah, so I, I

863
01:01:19.560 --> 01:01:23.790
think, you know, 10 mega joules
is probably easily achievable.

864
01:01:24.060 --> 01:01:27.000
And I think there is a good
chance, if we can solve the

865
01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:30.000
problem over the next day, it
might take a decade to go to low

866
01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:34.470
at a bat or some form, we keep,
we could push the 15 to 20 mega

867
01:01:34.470 --> 01:01:40.260
joule range. If we can get there
because 1.3 mega joule only burn

868
01:01:40.290 --> 01:01:43.740
a couple percent of the fuel,
right? So if we can get you are

869
01:01:43.740 --> 01:01:50.400
an experimentalist. So so, you
know, it depends on the day, I

870
01:01:50.400 --> 01:01:55.590
sway back and forth. But today,
you know, I, I think we are

871
01:01:55.590 --> 01:01:58.620
learning a lot. And I think if
we can solve that problem of

872
01:01:58.620 --> 01:02:01.590
being able to go to low here, if
we can't solve it, we're

873
01:02:01.590 --> 01:02:04.500
probably going to be limited to
five ish mega joules or three

874
01:02:04.500 --> 01:02:07.890
mega joules. But if we can solve
it, I think we can push it up.

875
01:02:07.890 --> 01:02:10.530
And I think that's going to be
the question. And I think it's

876
01:02:10.530 --> 01:02:15.780
probably another decade or could
be a decade or question to solve

877
01:02:15.780 --> 01:02:16.080
that.

878
01:02:17.460 --> 01:02:21.000
That's, to me, that was a great
answer. And we really, really

879
01:02:21.000 --> 01:02:24.480
need NSA to care and keep
pushing for the

880
01:02:25.140 --> 01:02:28.320
well the thing is, is that the
problem is the same for IFP as

881
01:02:28.320 --> 01:02:31.740
for the weapons program, they're
not they're not independent when

882
01:02:31.740 --> 01:02:33.750
it comes to compression and burn
in my opinion.

883
01:02:35.340 --> 01:02:39.090
So John, I'm assuming you're
implicitly saying that this is a

884
01:02:39.090 --> 01:02:40.620
direct drive to get those deals
right.

885
01:02:43.980 --> 01:02:47.190
Yeah, you owe me some Cosmos
now.

886
01:02:49.380 --> 01:02:53.280
Alright, so we're close to the
end of the session but Jeff Yes,

887
01:02:53.280 --> 01:02:53.430
I

888
01:02:53.430 --> 01:02:58.950
remember correctly had designed
for maximum incredible yield on

889
01:02:58.950 --> 01:03:04.290
the chamber was something on
your 30 It was 100 Mega

890
01:03:08.490 --> 01:03:09.270
facilities

891
01:03:12.780 --> 01:03:14.280
My dear I was too many.

892
01:03:16.290 --> 01:03:19.020
Actually don't remember the
number of myself overnight. It

893
01:03:19.020 --> 01:03:22.200
wasn't it wasn't a few negative
we'd never made a big deal it

894
01:03:22.200 --> 01:03:26.250
was tend to make that was in the
hands of mega joules. One day

895
01:03:27.720 --> 01:03:33.450
and I think we had a maximum
credible yield of

896
01:03:33.900 --> 01:03:37.080
the maximum credible yield was
100 mega joules, but we didn't

897
01:03:37.080 --> 01:03:40.800
really design to it. And we
didn't make it survive.

898
01:03:41.220 --> 01:03:42.090
Go ahead mark.

899
01:03:42.900 --> 01:03:46.530
The facility is rated for 45
mega joules today with a few

900
01:03:46.530 --> 01:03:51.690
million dollars that can be
upgraded to a little over 100

901
01:03:51.690 --> 01:03:52.470
mega joules.

902
01:03:53.430 --> 01:03:56.040
Alright, looks like a good place
to put America next.

903
01:03:59.130 --> 01:04:00.300
What is the point you're making?

904
01:04:01.740 --> 01:04:05.070
Right on that note? I think
we're ready to conclude this

905
01:04:05.070 --> 01:04:11.820
section and next will be Mike's
thoughts we'll take a bio break

906
01:04:11.820 --> 01:04:13.560
Yeah, let's take a break.

907
01:04:13.590 --> 01:04:18.750
Let's get back to quarter pot to
make a chance to think about his

908
01:04:19.170 --> 01:04:35.670
response to. That exactly how
many beans I don't know how to

909
01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:51.270
get another thing on the order.
So

910
01:04:53.250 --> 01:04:56.310
I want to point out make us
between us and the reception so

911
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:04.530
So what we want to do is leave
the last section of the session

912
01:05:04.530 --> 01:05:08.100
before we go to the reception,
socialize for a little bit and

913
01:05:08.100 --> 01:05:09.810
then actually meet them on
warfarin, you'll get some

914
01:05:09.810 --> 01:05:13.860
presentations to make and tell
all the funny stories that will

915
01:05:13.890 --> 01:05:18.150
get them in trouble with this
family afterwards. We want to

916
01:05:18.150 --> 01:05:20.880
give him a chance to talk a
little bit though as much as us

917
01:05:22.530 --> 01:05:26.610
as we use in the future. And
then, you know, thinking the

918
01:05:26.610 --> 01:05:29.850
past and everything you care to
what what he thinks the

919
01:05:29.850 --> 01:05:33.660
community should be doing in the
future. And what he plans to do

920
01:05:33.660 --> 01:05:36.660
as well. Because this people
have stayed all the way along.

921
01:05:36.990 --> 01:05:40.290
Mike's not retiring. He's just
dropping his phone calls from 24

922
01:05:40.290 --> 01:05:42.000
hours a day to significant three
and a half.

923
01:05:45.390 --> 01:05:51.300
All right. All right. So first,
I want to thank Chris and Jane,

924
01:05:51.480 --> 01:05:55.110
and everyone who participated to
do this. This is a I don't

925
01:05:55.110 --> 01:05:58.680
deserve any of this. But it's so
wonderful to see all of you on

926
01:05:58.680 --> 01:06:01.950
the Zoom and in here and such
but again, thank Chris and Jean,

927
01:06:02.430 --> 01:06:07.470
the moderators, you know, who
was Dustin Valarie on, Shawn,

928
01:06:07.770 --> 01:06:11.040
for doing what they did. So
thank you all. So when you

929
01:06:11.040 --> 01:06:13.350
retire, you're starting to do
look back. I mean, not everyone

930
01:06:13.350 --> 01:06:17.220
knows I love history. You know,
and so sometimes it's good to

931
01:06:17.220 --> 01:06:19.770
think of the history you were
involved in, the things I went

932
01:06:19.770 --> 01:06:22.080
to live with. And it was a
special time to be beginning of

933
01:06:22.080 --> 01:06:25.710
the program, beginning of
radiation driven implosions and

934
01:06:25.710 --> 01:06:30.570
all the challenges to help make
experiments on Shiva and artists

935
01:06:30.570 --> 01:06:34.980
and you know, obviously Nova
meet lots of wonderful people,

936
01:06:35.010 --> 01:06:37.950
you know, to hire them not to
try to any always, I always said

937
01:06:37.950 --> 01:06:40.530
I wanted to have a place that
had the best people in it,

938
01:06:40.530 --> 01:06:42.930
because that's what makes the
place the best is the people

939
01:06:42.930 --> 01:06:47.760
within it. And so being able to
hire people around the world,

940
01:06:48.000 --> 01:06:50.730
and I have to tell Joe Kilkenny
story, this is a true story.

941
01:06:51.450 --> 01:06:55.440
Now, I was almost fired early on
my career in Livermore, because

942
01:06:55.440 --> 01:07:01.230
of Joe. So but so when I first
became a group leader, I'll talk

943
01:07:01.230 --> 01:07:05.790
about the future, but it was, it
was about I thought, I broke the

944
01:07:05.790 --> 01:07:08.850
problem, I put the problem in
two halves. One is an LTI

945
01:07:08.850 --> 01:07:11.610
problem. The other one is a
hydro problem. And what

946
01:07:11.610 --> 01:07:14.310
experimenters were doing the
best LTI and what we're doing

947
01:07:14.310 --> 01:07:18.630
the best hydro. And the best LTI
was a guy named Hector Wallace,

948
01:07:18.630 --> 01:07:24.480
and I'm scattering measuring
plasma waves and all these

949
01:07:24.480 --> 01:07:29.640
things. But he was Argentinian
in Canada, and Argentina had a

950
01:07:29.640 --> 01:07:33.960
nuclear weapons program at one
time, and so imagine the

951
01:07:33.960 --> 01:07:37.740
challenges to get Hector into
the laboratory back to passed

952
01:07:37.740 --> 01:07:41.550
away just a couple of years ago,
and I went to his ceremony and

953
01:07:41.550 --> 01:07:43.920
honoring him and it was brought
back all the good memories with

954
01:07:43.920 --> 01:07:48.990
actor. Joe was another thing. So
as I mentioned, I met you on

955
01:07:48.990 --> 01:07:52.440
this conference, you know, and
he did have a faded rose shirt,

956
01:07:52.500 --> 01:07:56.070
and the shirt had flowers on it.
And it was faded away. And it

957
01:07:56.070 --> 01:07:59.790
had this tooth was black, the
black tooth. But now the British

958
01:07:59.790 --> 01:08:01.410
don't have dentistry, they don't
have clothes.

959
01:08:02.970 --> 01:08:04.050
Did he smell good?

960
01:08:06.990 --> 01:08:09.210
He really did say because
remember, the more program was

961
01:08:09.210 --> 01:08:12.750
mostly classified. And you know,
he did say you guys have all the

962
01:08:12.750 --> 01:08:17.430
money but it sucks. And so
deeply. And I started campaign

963
01:08:17.430 --> 01:08:19.170
to get him there because I
wanted him to build a premium

964
01:08:19.170 --> 01:08:23.460
camera. Joe was obviously Joe's
electrical engineer in plasma

965
01:08:23.460 --> 01:08:28.740
physics, clothing. And he came
over for a sabbatical brought

966
01:08:28.740 --> 01:08:33.120
his wife and three young kids.
And after a while he saw all the

967
01:08:33.120 --> 01:08:38.790
money at Livermore, and Mason,
maybe I can stay there. And so

968
01:08:38.790 --> 01:08:45.060
this visa was running out and I
wanted to Hiram and we had to

969
01:08:45.060 --> 01:08:48.630
get his visa changed. And
University California had a

970
01:08:48.690 --> 01:08:51.420
thing at the time that came from
the man until World War Two of

971
01:08:51.480 --> 01:08:55.590
the 30s that if you have someone
was going to win a Nobel Prize,

972
01:08:55.590 --> 01:09:00.570
they would expedite your visa.
So I wrote to everyone in the

973
01:09:00.570 --> 01:09:03.240
world to tell me that Joe
Kokanee is going to win a Nobel

974
01:09:03.240 --> 01:09:09.510
Prize. And no one responds. And
it just coming in almost every

975
01:09:09.510 --> 01:09:13.020
day Susan says we're going back
and we won't be back. This isn't

976
01:09:13.020 --> 01:09:18.120
this is white. So I go to my
boss, John Emmett office. And

977
01:09:18.120 --> 01:09:22.140
he's not there. He's on a six
week vacation. So I say what am

978
01:09:22.140 --> 01:09:26.160
I going to do? So I decided,
I'll write a letter for John.

979
01:09:26.430 --> 01:09:33.240
And I'll sign up for John.
Please, respond to Mike

980
01:09:33.240 --> 01:09:37.590
Campbell, blah, blah. And then I
find it John mm. At that time,

981
01:09:37.590 --> 01:09:40.650
there was no internet it was we
had a central fax office. It was

982
01:09:40.650 --> 01:09:44.400
fax everybody. And of course I
wasn't smart enough to write

983
01:09:44.400 --> 01:09:49.530
they would send the fax to the
originator. Six weeks later,

984
01:09:49.530 --> 01:09:53.280
something I'm in my office. The
letters started coming in work.

985
01:09:53.760 --> 01:09:57.690
And I got a call from a woman
Diane Olvera. Jeff remembers my

986
01:09:58.140 --> 01:10:03.720
time very well. John would like
to See you? And know what would

987
01:10:03.720 --> 01:10:06.120
you want to see me I'm yellow
about five levels below them.

988
01:10:06.840 --> 01:10:10.650
And I walk into his office,
which is where more kermans Were

989
01:10:10.680 --> 01:10:14.610
the ICF offices over and for
anyone just got this piece of

990
01:10:14.610 --> 01:10:19.230
paper, and he throws it out.
He's luminescence he's so angry.

991
01:10:19.830 --> 01:10:23.220
So for literally two hours on,
he was just yelling at me, you

992
01:10:23.220 --> 01:10:28.710
can imagine things he would say,
you know, Jonathan, so I get the

993
01:10:28.710 --> 01:10:31.050
resume out of where I'm gonna
come from and be out of the job.

994
01:10:32.400 --> 01:10:35.070
Come back on Monday, I got a
call in his office, I thought

995
01:10:35.070 --> 01:10:38.490
was gonna give me my walking
papers. And he said, I talked to

996
01:10:38.490 --> 01:10:42.120
these people. I'll give you one
last chance. And Joe was hired.

997
01:10:44.670 --> 01:10:47.040
And then, and then I asked Joe,
who you were three best graduate

998
01:10:47.040 --> 01:10:52.650
students per gallon, and
Jonathan Harris. So Nina was

999
01:10:52.650 --> 01:10:57.060
easy. It was an American. But I
went to Emmett. And he goes, I'm

1000
01:10:57.060 --> 01:11:02.400
not heard any more foreigners?
No, because Brian and Brian and

1001
01:11:03.000 --> 01:11:08.640
Jonathan were English. So we got
Jonathan come over on a postdoc,

1002
01:11:08.850 --> 01:11:13.530
and Emmons would sign off on
that for he and Ryan. So after a

1003
01:11:13.560 --> 01:11:18.390
couple years, I this postdoc
turns out and I go to Emmett,

1004
01:11:18.570 --> 01:11:21.840
I'm not hurting anymore. Brett's
so I go to Berkeley, can you

1005
01:11:21.840 --> 01:11:26.160
hire Brian McGowan? And they
hired Brian McGowan. And Brian

1006
01:11:26.160 --> 01:11:33.270
would hide in the parking lot
every time John. It's all about

1007
01:11:33.270 --> 01:11:36.930
people come to source. And so
then, a couple years later,

1008
01:11:37.890 --> 01:11:42.960
Berkeley says we can continue
this. So around the same time,

1009
01:11:42.990 --> 01:11:46.410
Bob Cooper, who was running a
weapons program asked me to run

1010
01:11:46.440 --> 01:11:48.570
el division, which was a diet
that target cases of

1011
01:11:48.570 --> 01:11:52.410
experimental division weapons
program. So I went to John

1012
01:11:52.410 --> 01:11:55.830
Emmet, and said, they offered a
job and he goes, No, no, no, no,

1013
01:11:55.830 --> 01:11:59.160
there. You can imagine what John
said. And I said, well, we need

1014
01:11:59.190 --> 01:12:02.970
better people here. Can I hire
Brian McGowan. And he goes, I

1015
01:12:02.970 --> 01:12:05.670
thought he went back to England.
I said, he found a job elsewhere

1016
01:12:05.670 --> 01:12:08.280
in the country. I didn't say
where it was. So I went back to

1017
01:12:08.280 --> 01:12:13.110
my office and got I had Brian's
hiring thing all written out for

1018
01:12:13.110 --> 01:12:16.290
years, and was over kind of the
sign. He sees it comes up, throw

1019
01:12:16.290 --> 01:12:19.350
it in the trash fashion, I'm not
hiring anymore grips. So I go

1020
01:12:19.350 --> 01:12:23.190
out to his office, and I'm
calling Bob book to accept the

1021
01:12:23.190 --> 01:12:26.160
job. And it comes down same as
the phone down it says God

1022
01:12:26.160 --> 01:12:30.810
dammit, all higher Brian
McGowan. Always about the

1023
01:12:32.760 --> 01:12:36.030
elderly is especially. So one of
the things I'm most proud of my

1024
01:12:36.030 --> 01:12:39.270
career is all the friends I met,
all the wonderful scientists and

1025
01:12:39.270 --> 01:12:42.420
many of you have become friends.
You know, and it's, that's the

1026
01:12:42.420 --> 01:12:45.840
thing, which is most the thing
I'm most satisfied about my

1027
01:12:45.840 --> 01:12:51.630
career. No, and no cream, was
there serious reasons that put

1028
01:12:51.630 --> 01:12:54.300
up with me for all these years
where I always tell people

1029
01:12:54.300 --> 01:12:57.690
balance in one's life. And I was
never anyone to do that as well

1030
01:12:57.690 --> 01:13:00.270
as I should have. But you know,
granted, we'll be married 44

1031
01:13:00.270 --> 01:13:03.900
years, in December, the best
thing I ever did. There's our

1032
01:13:03.900 --> 01:13:07.620
daughter, Heather, on Nick is
someplace you sleeping, Kelsey

1033
01:13:07.620 --> 01:13:08.160
and our grandma

1034
01:13:09.510 --> 01:13:13.020
and my brother's wife and my
other sister Donna here. So

1035
01:13:13.020 --> 01:13:15.930
they're all here to participate
in this, which I'm very, very

1036
01:13:15.930 --> 01:13:20.070
happy for them to have come. As
everybody knows they're easy.

1037
01:13:27.000 --> 01:13:35.670
Right? That's another thing that
clearly knows me better than

1038
01:13:35.670 --> 01:13:39.030
anybody. And as many Mikey
stories that I'm sure YouTube

1039
01:13:39.030 --> 01:13:44.460
will do. So Chris also said them
forget about competition. So

1040
01:13:44.460 --> 01:13:50.550
here's a story that match and
some people know. So Sandia had

1041
01:13:50.550 --> 01:13:54.570
a photo electron beam program
and then a late ion program. And

1042
01:13:54.570 --> 01:13:56.820
then we have this one, we have
the standing committee to sit

1043
01:13:56.820 --> 01:14:00.330
back committee, and they will
get milestones, and the other

1044
01:14:00.330 --> 01:14:04.200
milestone of eating something
200 volts, but the way that I am

1045
01:14:04.200 --> 01:14:10.200
being and that they did not
achieve it. And they made a

1046
01:14:10.200 --> 01:14:16.410
presentation to convert to Z
pitch. And so the head of IQ

1047
01:14:16.410 --> 01:14:19.470
back went around. And so we're
all at Sandia, New Zealand,

1048
01:14:19.470 --> 01:14:23.670
Sandia, and they went around and
asked all the ICF program

1049
01:14:23.670 --> 01:14:28.290
leaders that bomb bomb Sandy has
never met a milestone they never

1050
01:14:28.290 --> 01:14:32.310
well canceled. I'm not
surprised. See, voters said the

1051
01:14:32.310 --> 01:14:36.180
same thing. Melissa Cray said
the same thing done was up to

1052
01:14:36.180 --> 01:14:39.810
me. So I decided so I went up
and said we ought to give them a

1053
01:14:39.810 --> 01:14:42.360
chance because I'm always trying
to hire people from Sandy and

1054
01:14:42.360 --> 01:14:44.250
that we have a program here I'll
be able to hire some more

1055
01:14:44.250 --> 01:14:50.010
people. And, and I also thought
that they would get 100 volts

1056
01:14:50.010 --> 01:14:52.800
and they would be able to a pass
and other things were relevant

1057
01:14:52.800 --> 01:14:57.360
for program design. And so that
programming was kept alive. And

1058
01:14:57.360 --> 01:14:59.790
it was you know, struggled back
in that so that was something

1059
01:14:59.880 --> 01:15:03.870
that That was a wise choice.
Well, I'm glad I did it. But it

1060
01:15:03.870 --> 01:15:06.330
was only it was because
competition is what's required

1061
01:15:06.360 --> 01:15:10.860
and they had such good team. You
know, Bruce Hamel hired him from

1062
01:15:10.860 --> 01:15:14.340
you know, from from Sandia. You
know, Don Tony, it was it was

1063
01:15:14.340 --> 01:15:19.320
Alamos I tried to hire Keith
Madsen. So it was always good

1064
01:15:19.320 --> 01:15:24.270
people there. So competition is
right now and so I think all

1065
01:15:24.270 --> 01:15:26.730
those things I look back at my
career, having been involved in

1066
01:15:26.730 --> 01:15:29.310
such a broad spectrum of
community is just one of the

1067
01:15:29.310 --> 01:15:33.510
wonderful things getting to know
Russians. Russian history and so

1068
01:15:33.510 --> 01:15:37.980
being able to go meet bass often
poker off. And, of course,

1069
01:15:38.400 --> 01:15:40.650
crane, we wouldn't have good
Russian friends stay at our

1070
01:15:40.650 --> 01:15:43.860
house, you don't have to ask
them about what it was like to

1071
01:15:43.860 --> 01:15:46.470
live in a Soviet Union and such.
And it was great to meet all

1072
01:15:46.470 --> 01:15:49.440
these international friends to
do the things about clients. As

1073
01:15:49.440 --> 01:15:52.290
you all know, science is not.
It's like the atmosphere doesn't

1074
01:15:52.290 --> 01:15:55.830
know boundaries. The countries
are an artifact of humanity, but

1075
01:15:55.830 --> 01:15:59.550
scientists for everybody. And so
it's always good to learn and be

1076
01:15:59.820 --> 01:16:03.150
good friends across the globe.
And they're still there, on when

1077
01:16:03.180 --> 01:16:06.030
green I travel will go see some
of them. So I think that's also

1078
01:16:06.030 --> 01:16:09.780
another thing lesson learned. So
the future to me is, you know,

1079
01:16:10.230 --> 01:16:14.520
go back to history, having been
involved in real time having

1080
01:16:14.850 --> 01:16:17.940
your job made Nova, such a
wonderful facility, make

1081
01:16:17.940 --> 01:16:21.270
experimentalists equal players
with models and simulators.

1082
01:16:21.690 --> 01:16:24.120
That's very important to do it.
No, you need a strong

1083
01:16:24.120 --> 01:16:26.280
experimental program just as
either strong modeling and

1084
01:16:26.280 --> 01:16:29.250
computing and simulation
program. You need both. If you

1085
01:16:29.250 --> 01:16:34.170
have one. So then I will, I will
say something. But Vic said

1086
01:16:34.530 --> 01:16:37.470
about this a little bit about
that. I think crumble said

1087
01:16:37.470 --> 01:16:41.400
something to, you know, when he
did when the when they caught

1088
01:16:41.400 --> 01:16:44.280
the person asked me to Livermore
that came out for it. And he

1089
01:16:44.280 --> 01:16:47.700
made the speech about ginger
Roger and Fred Astaire, you

1090
01:16:47.700 --> 01:16:49.890
said, you know, Fred gave her
class and she gave him sex

1091
01:16:49.890 --> 01:16:52.950
appeal, not sex, but sex appeal.
And so the same thing you need

1092
01:16:52.950 --> 01:16:55.740
experimental. So every program
needs to have the best people in

1093
01:16:55.740 --> 01:16:57.360
all the different disciplines.
And of course, you need

1094
01:16:57.360 --> 01:16:59.700
outstanding engineering, and
everything else to go along with

1095
01:16:59.700 --> 01:17:02.850
that. So the future is going to
be about getting all the right

1096
01:17:02.850 --> 01:17:06.330
people in the program and
maintaining their interest. Very

1097
01:17:06.330 --> 01:17:10.740
interesting times. So I think
what what future would be I

1098
01:17:10.740 --> 01:17:13.500
mean, Rochester, as I mentioned
before, it's always inventing

1099
01:17:13.500 --> 01:17:19.050
things, you know, admitted SSD
invented, CPA invented, you

1100
01:17:19.050 --> 01:17:20.880
know, frequency conversion,

1101
01:17:22.350 --> 01:17:27.270
and flux. So actually, there's
an interesting story on flux,

1102
01:17:28.140 --> 01:17:32.280
connected to the petawatt. So I
went down after Dustin done his

1103
01:17:32.280 --> 01:17:36.300
wonderful experience with top
nine, the team that does details

1104
01:17:36.300 --> 01:17:40.650
and measuring distribution
functions. And I was talking to

1105
01:17:40.650 --> 01:17:44.400
Sean Finnegan, about comp nine
in that and you said, Well, why

1106
01:17:44.400 --> 01:17:47.100
don't you get rid of the hotline
market, the electronics

1107
01:17:47.100 --> 01:17:49.410
abilities, the very fat, high
protein splits, I don't have

1108
01:17:49.410 --> 01:17:53.820
enough bandwidth to do that. So
I'm trying I'm flying back. And

1109
01:17:53.820 --> 01:17:57.810
I remember the petawatt that
Livermore had, it was bandwidth

1110
01:17:57.810 --> 01:18:01.890
limited. At 500 femtoseconds, it
was bandwidth limited. And I

1111
01:18:01.890 --> 01:18:05.010
thought, the world is that 20
femtosecond lasers, someone's

1112
01:18:05.010 --> 01:18:07.650
got a lot of bandwidth. So I
went back and talked to John

1113
01:18:07.650 --> 01:18:11.790
Augustine and they came up with
Flux. And you know, and Chris

1114
01:18:11.790 --> 01:18:14.610
off and all the people. So
Rochester is going to play a

1115
01:18:14.610 --> 01:18:17.700
critical role in the future,
whatever the laboratories,

1116
01:18:17.880 --> 01:18:21.510
whatever the program is, keeping
that history that the stuff that

1117
01:18:21.510 --> 01:18:24.270
Ricardo is doing on using
statistical methods, and

1118
01:18:24.750 --> 01:18:27.240
actually, he's teaching the code
by experiments, not the other

1119
01:18:27.240 --> 01:18:29.970
way around. That's how it all
should be done. You know, Larry

1120
01:18:29.970 --> 01:18:32.880
continues in this group
continues to do innovative

1121
01:18:32.880 --> 01:18:35.730
stuff. We were able to hire
people from Livermore like

1122
01:18:35.730 --> 01:18:41.340
click, you know, sending
students to the labs, our first

1123
01:18:41.370 --> 01:18:45.150
EMR student going here, not too
long ago, JJ movie, and he

1124
01:18:45.150 --> 01:18:48.930
showed there were 75 applicants
for the EO Lawrence fellowship

1125
01:18:48.930 --> 01:18:51.750
at Livermore five at the top of
the font, top five, two of them

1126
01:18:51.750 --> 01:18:55.620
were Rochester students. And
then, of course, not the only

1127
01:18:55.620 --> 01:18:59.280
selected three are our other
student was fourth on the list.

1128
01:18:59.280 --> 01:19:02.970
And so he didn't get it. But you
know, we have one to do that. So

1129
01:19:02.970 --> 01:19:04.590
students are going to be
critical the future is going to

1130
01:19:04.590 --> 01:19:06.870
be about students. One of the
nice things about Rochester at

1131
01:19:06.870 --> 01:19:10.080
the lab, is that the students
are so involved in the program.

1132
01:19:10.590 --> 01:19:13.740
They're not doing thesis in your
in your office are in a small

1133
01:19:13.740 --> 01:19:16.650
laboratory, they're actually
very much involved in doing

1134
01:19:17.130 --> 01:19:19.860
milestone based work stuff that
we got to call for by the

1135
01:19:19.860 --> 01:19:22.950
department. So as one of the
things that we've all described

1136
01:19:22.950 --> 01:19:27.180
as they get a four pi education,
learn not only how to do good

1137
01:19:27.180 --> 01:19:29.310
science, but how to deal with
people how to do

1138
01:19:29.310 --> 01:19:33.300
multidisciplinary work, how to
talk with Congressman, you know,

1139
01:19:33.300 --> 01:19:35.910
we have our students given talks
to Congress and things like I

1140
01:19:35.910 --> 01:19:38.520
know, Chris will keep on doing
that sort of stuff. So the

1141
01:19:38.520 --> 01:19:41.220
future is going to be about
keeping these students and

1142
01:19:41.220 --> 01:19:43.350
getting better and better
keeping getting more and more

1143
01:19:43.350 --> 01:19:47.700
and more, even better ones. But
I guess, one of the things that

1144
01:19:47.700 --> 01:19:50.460
I think what we need in the
future, you've heard me say it

1145
01:19:50.460 --> 01:19:53.370
before, we need a facility that
can fires hundreds of times a

1146
01:19:53.370 --> 01:19:56.430
week. I said 100 times a day,
but that's ultimately one to do

1147
01:19:56.430 --> 01:19:59.580
and we know how to do that. It's
going to take a lot of effort,

1148
01:19:59.580 --> 01:20:02.130
but you know With something
something you can imagine being

1149
01:20:02.130 --> 01:20:05.970
able to do, then you can try new
ideas. And you know, and you

1150
01:20:05.970 --> 01:20:08.940
know, and you can try, and you
can do statistics, you know, all

1151
01:20:08.940 --> 01:20:12.240
the things that we just barely
can do right now, you know, with

1152
01:20:12.240 --> 01:20:15.360
the system that's precise,
that's LPI. Free. And I can do

1153
01:20:15.360 --> 01:20:19.080
this, just imagine what a tool
would be. And what I want to do

1154
01:20:19.080 --> 01:20:22.800
on my next phase, is to try and
help sell that vision with

1155
01:20:22.800 --> 01:20:26.100
people here, you know, to
whatever sponsoring agency,

1156
01:20:26.190 --> 01:20:29.100
including maybe the private
sector, whoever it may be to do

1157
01:20:29.100 --> 01:20:32.220
that, because it's such going to
be critical for the program to

1158
01:20:32.220 --> 01:20:36.210
advance, we don't do enough
data, we don't get enough shots.

1159
01:20:36.630 --> 01:20:39.150
And we need a something that
will allow that to happen. Not

1160
01:20:39.150 --> 01:20:41.670
attend Earth rates, that's tore
too fast, and we'd never be able

1161
01:20:41.670 --> 01:20:44.760
to do it. But something which
fires every five or 10 minutes,

1162
01:20:44.820 --> 01:20:48.360
and you guys now, we know how to
do it. It's some of the things

1163
01:20:48.360 --> 01:20:51.030
done in Europe. But you know,
we're not in a not in a

1164
01:20:51.030 --> 01:20:53.820
complicated implosion facility,
what you need, because what

1165
01:20:53.820 --> 01:20:58.260
makes what sells program are
neutrons. And so you need a

1166
01:20:58.350 --> 01:21:02.160
solar that can do implosions the
complicated targets and do it

1167
01:21:02.160 --> 01:21:05.040
frequently. That's the future.
And whether it's a mega next how

1168
01:21:05.040 --> 01:21:07.260
big it is, I think it's a
challenge. How big should it be?

1169
01:21:07.980 --> 01:21:12.840
And I know my view is as big as
it can be affordable, you know,

1170
01:21:12.840 --> 01:21:15.570
and it'd be nice to have
something which I think is maybe

1171
01:21:16.050 --> 01:21:19.740
three quarters, half a mega
joule 200 kilojoules, and mega

1172
01:21:19.740 --> 01:21:22.110
joule, could we do something
like that? Not today, but

1173
01:21:22.110 --> 01:21:24.840
surely, in the next decade, you
can be able to sign it something

1174
01:21:24.840 --> 01:21:28.590
like that happen. And that I
think, would be something that

1175
01:21:28.590 --> 01:21:32.340
would mill it, put fusion over
the edge, and we'll help, you

1176
01:21:32.340 --> 01:21:35.370
know, decide an IP makes sense,
because the first thing to make

1177
01:21:35.400 --> 01:21:38.640
IP to make sense is targets. So
they work, you don't have it,

1178
01:21:38.640 --> 01:21:41.310
you don't have the energy
producing plasma, everything

1179
01:21:41.310 --> 01:21:44.550
else is irrelevant. You know,
but you have to do that first.

1180
01:21:44.640 --> 01:21:47.370
And then of course, while
Ricardo design the future

1181
01:21:47.370 --> 01:21:48.660
reactor, right, and I'll do

1182
01:21:50.100 --> 01:21:52.890
so that's something which I
think the laboratories better

1183
01:21:52.920 --> 01:21:55.530
take a big role in deciding what
that's going to be for the

1184
01:21:55.530 --> 01:21:58.290
community and bring the
committee along with it. That's

1185
01:21:58.290 --> 01:22:00.300
going to be a challenge. But
it's something which, you know,

1186
01:22:00.300 --> 01:22:02.580
I think that you know, Chris,
and the other leadership here

1187
01:22:02.640 --> 01:22:06.330
can do with the proper support
from NSA and at the Astron,

1188
01:22:06.330 --> 01:22:09.900
whoever else can do that. That's
what the future should be. No,

1189
01:22:09.900 --> 01:22:12.030
and I think that we're at the
point now, where that could be

1190
01:22:12.030 --> 01:22:17.700
done, no longer term for
stewardship. For a high level,

1191
01:22:17.730 --> 01:22:21.060
we can't talk about nuclear
weapons details here. But 100

1192
01:22:21.060 --> 01:22:24.480
mega joule and higher facility
that's going to be required, I

1193
01:22:24.480 --> 01:22:27.630
think, for the Stewardship
Program. And in this in this

1194
01:22:27.630 --> 01:22:31.170
century, no one was there first.
And so it's interesting to hear

1195
01:22:31.170 --> 01:22:34.950
when Vic first had stewardship.
The belief was that the Soviet

1196
01:22:34.950 --> 01:22:38.430
Union, the war is one. And as
you all know, democracies

1197
01:22:38.430 --> 01:22:41.940
demobilize when wars are over,
they always do get after World

1198
01:22:41.940 --> 01:22:44.010
War Two, and look what happened
when required to pass down in

1199
01:22:44.010 --> 01:22:48.900
Korea. And so when the Soviet
Union collapsed, we won. So the

1200
01:22:48.900 --> 01:22:52.470
idea was, well, we'll eventually
get rid of nuclear weapons. That

1201
01:22:52.470 --> 01:22:56.730
was we had to maintain the rent
globally. And the adversary was

1202
01:22:56.730 --> 01:22:59.130
the Soviet Union, well, now
they're gonna be our friend. And

1203
01:22:59.130 --> 01:23:01.680
so it was. So when Vic talked
about long term vision of

1204
01:23:01.710 --> 01:23:04.950
nuclear weapons, it was a we've
got gradually fade away, it's

1205
01:23:04.950 --> 01:23:09.180
small enough, and then sometime
in the future fade away. But you

1206
01:23:09.180 --> 01:23:12.210
know, that's it's a different
world now, you know, didn't

1207
01:23:12.210 --> 01:23:15.240
happen as we all hoped it would.
And so stewardship is, will be

1208
01:23:15.240 --> 01:23:18.300
even more important if it ever
has. Now, because there's now

1209
01:23:18.360 --> 01:23:21.990
adversaries are not just Russia,
but China, China is a real

1210
01:23:21.990 --> 01:23:25.590
adversary who's got the economic
and people be able to be a real

1211
01:23:25.590 --> 01:23:27.660
competitor. And they're
integrating the global economy

1212
01:23:27.660 --> 01:23:31.770
that Russia and Soviet Union. So
we need a machine like that it

1213
01:23:31.770 --> 01:23:34.320
won't be built at a university.
If people want the national

1214
01:23:34.320 --> 01:23:37.680
average, probably the test site
is where it should be. So it's

1215
01:23:39.030 --> 01:23:42.540
just a community facility, not
Livermore facility, or anyone

1216
01:23:42.540 --> 01:23:45.210
else's, whatever that facility
should be, it should be the test

1217
01:23:45.210 --> 01:23:49.290
site. But hopefully, no, I will,
they will continue to be a major

1218
01:23:49.620 --> 01:23:53.610
player in deciding what that is,
by sending students who actually

1219
01:23:53.640 --> 01:23:56.760
can decide what it is in the
future by doing experiments and

1220
01:23:56.760 --> 01:24:00.330
modeling gear that helps people
figure out exactly how they get

1221
01:24:00.330 --> 01:24:04.770
the motor to date. And so that's
something which I do. When I

1222
01:24:04.770 --> 01:24:08.460
look back my wonderful time in
Livermore, there were some

1223
01:24:08.460 --> 01:24:13.260
challenges there. You all know,
thank God for Korean. But for

1224
01:24:13.260 --> 01:24:16.440
the last five years, the last
time when I've known this place

1225
01:24:16.440 --> 01:24:20.010
for a long time, as many of you
know, and I used to tell Bob,

1226
01:24:20.250 --> 01:24:23.430
you know, this is not a national
lab. It's an actual unique place

1227
01:24:23.430 --> 01:24:26.790
in the whole world, the
university research thing at

1228
01:24:26.790 --> 01:24:30.720
scale, low, you know, and it's a
university based thing. So the

1229
01:24:30.750 --> 01:24:33.930
can that having students be
intimately involved, always keep

1230
01:24:33.930 --> 01:24:36.810
in mind, right? Students are
always questioning, they learned

1231
01:24:36.810 --> 01:24:40.290
things that you don't know. And
that's a unique capability that

1232
01:24:40.290 --> 01:24:44.310
Rochester brings to the to the
world community. And so the last

1233
01:24:44.310 --> 01:24:48.180
five, seven years, actually,
even though I had to not have

1234
01:24:48.180 --> 01:24:52.260
dinner with my wife, many nights
flying through Chicago was

1235
01:24:52.260 --> 01:24:54.060
always a challenge to have it
but they do have a good

1236
01:24:54.060 --> 01:24:56.400
Brachiosaurus there and our
daughter Heather lives there. So

1237
01:24:56.400 --> 01:25:00.210
sometimes I would get trapped
and standard place. It is

1238
01:25:00.990 --> 01:25:03.960
probably the most enjoyable time
I've had getting. I know, I know

1239
01:25:03.960 --> 01:25:07.080
many of you. But you know, I see
many of you not only as

1240
01:25:07.080 --> 01:25:11.040
colleagues but as friends. And
so it's something that it's

1241
01:25:11.040 --> 01:25:14.940
going out in the way that you
get when you go out on top. Or

1242
01:25:14.940 --> 01:25:19.020
going out on going out as a
director here. And again, one of

1243
01:25:19.020 --> 01:25:22.980
the things that I'm most proud
of is not is the people that

1244
01:25:22.980 --> 01:25:27.510
have come, you know, the cliffs,
the Chris's, I can go on and on

1245
01:25:27.510 --> 01:25:33.990
a David Turnbull or JP JP over
there, you know, I think that's

1246
01:25:33.990 --> 01:25:36.300
the thing that makes this place
special. So people that have

1247
01:25:36.300 --> 01:25:42.420
come in West Coast, you know,
something that they come because

1248
01:25:42.420 --> 01:25:48.630
this is a special place. So,
that's all I have to say. I

1249
01:25:48.630 --> 01:25:50.610
mean, if anyone want to ask me a
question, I'll be glad to say

1250
01:25:50.610 --> 01:25:52.530
but that's all I want to say.
I'm just want to thank all of

1251
01:25:52.530 --> 01:25:56.880
you. Thank you, Chris. Thanks,
Jean. thank my family for

1252
01:25:56.880 --> 01:26:00.120
coming. My wonderful wife, my
wife and my children. That's

1253
01:26:00.120 --> 01:26:01.230
made a special day for me.

1254
01:26:25.590 --> 01:26:39.210
Have a round of applause to
Korean family. All right.

1255
01:26:42.810 --> 01:26:45.420
And you're lucky to have Chris
here. Amen.

1256
01:26:47.070 --> 01:26:53.190
Very, very many big shoes to
sell. So the reception starts in

1257
01:26:53.190 --> 01:26:56.760
20 minutes. So I recommend we
all just start migrating over.

1258
01:26:56.760 --> 01:27:02.220
It's over on the east side. And
so we'll go and have some social

1259
01:27:02.220 --> 01:27:06.090
time and then we'll make some
presentations and Ross to make

1260
01:27:06.090 --> 01:27:10.290
as best we can. And we'll get to
some of the funny stories about

1261
01:27:11.610 --> 01:27:12.120
a racist.

1262
01:27:14.670 --> 01:27:15.420
joke, okay.

1263
01:27:17.970 --> 01:27:21.300
And then Heather can talk about
a lot of Mikey moments, as they

1264
01:27:21.300 --> 01:27:21.720
call it