WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.110 In the session on Stockpile, Stockpile, 2 00:00:04.710 --> 00:00:07.920 Stewardship petawatt and the launch of NIF. We've already 3 00:00:07.920 --> 00:00:11.340 touched on a bit of that, because of course, the period 4 00:00:11.340 --> 00:00:16.560 before this led up to a bunch of this activity, we forget about 5 00:00:16.560 --> 00:00:19.350 Stockpile Stewardship and and then if petawatt that gets will 6 00:00:19.350 --> 00:00:25.380 be the new sort of injection of topics to discuss here. We got 7 00:00:25.380 --> 00:00:28.410 to listen to the panel introduce the introductions, I don't see 8 00:00:28.410 --> 00:00:34.650 Vic on the on the camera up there. I don't see Vic Reis on 9 00:00:34.680 --> 00:00:40.470 Yeah. Are you on Vic? Unmute yourself or raise your hand? Do 10 00:00:40.470 --> 00:00:41.940 so pops to the top. 11 00:00:42.239 --> 00:00:45.329 If he's not able to join that then I would like to contribute 12 00:00:45.329 --> 00:00:45.779 some things. 13 00:00:45.959 --> 00:00:51.839 Oh, yeah. Yeah, so I've added added to this list. Joe KilKenny, 14 00:00:51.839 --> 00:00:56.579 we know you're gonna see him in the list just here in person. 15 00:00:56.849 --> 00:01:00.809 Mike Perry is a logged on by phone. I'm pretty sure I don't 16 00:01:00.809 --> 00:01:05.279 think we'll see his face. He's I think he's calling in. There's a 17 00:01:05.279 --> 00:01:08.159 bunch of other names Bob McCrory has been on. And I think he has 18 00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:13.199 a lot to say and a lot of these topics. In this session, Steve 19 00:01:13.199 --> 00:01:17.699 Lau has been was pivotal during the period, at least here at 20 00:01:17.699 --> 00:01:22.319 lled. I think we'll have some things to say Dave, Christine 21 00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:26.999 and Mark Herman markets on yet he said he was guest he is good. 22 00:01:27.419 --> 00:01:30.689 So we'll start with the introduction, but I'm gonna use 23 00:01:30.689 --> 00:01:35.579 myself first. I consider myself a little bit of a newbie here, 24 00:01:35.579 --> 00:01:43.079 right? I mean, in the gray hair department. I started here at 25 00:01:43.079 --> 00:01:46.799 the University of students graduate student in 1989, after 26 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:52.589 spending five years predecessor, part of NSA at the Naval Naval 27 00:01:52.589 --> 00:01:56.159 Reactors organization, but my true love was lasers. I wanted 28 00:01:56.159 --> 00:02:00.569 to get back to lasers. I started here at the lab in 1996 as a 29 00:02:00.599 --> 00:02:05.009 real person once I graduated, and started almost immediately 30 00:02:05.009 --> 00:02:09.389 doing nuclear diagnostics, but then get back to lasers and on 31 00:02:09.389 --> 00:02:13.349 terror as the first time we met for really knew anything about 32 00:02:13.349 --> 00:02:18.959 mine was in the SSL a ICF conference because the laser 33 00:02:18.959 --> 00:02:23.489 applications for IDF were actually gave a plenary talk on 34 00:02:23.489 --> 00:02:28.589 terahertz. That was the concept we hadn't even done it yet. And 35 00:02:28.769 --> 00:02:31.529 I think I actually met you in an elevator they got stuck for a 36 00:02:31.529 --> 00:02:33.809 few minutes. I don't really remember that could have been 37 00:02:33.809 --> 00:02:35.729 you, but I'm pretty sure it was you but there wasn't, you know, 38 00:02:35.729 --> 00:02:42.689 that is. It was my that's what they told me what I remember. So 39 00:02:42.989 --> 00:02:48.359 let's see. Joe IV he's introduced himself Jeff, he's 40 00:02:48.359 --> 00:02:52.919 introduced himself Mike, do you want to grab the mic so to speak 41 00:02:52.919 --> 00:03:00.749 and introduce yourself my carry to one 42 00:03:02.130 --> 00:03:03.330 that's all muted. 43 00:03:04.380 --> 00:03:10.740 If you're still muted Perry and which very well, we'll move on 44 00:03:10.770 --> 00:03:14.190 Obamacare and you want to step to the mic and do a quick 45 00:03:14.190 --> 00:03:21.960 introduction. Wonder if it's on our end 46 00:03:25.230 --> 00:03:27.150 back and forth. Somebody might have 47 00:03:27.150 --> 00:03:29.640 left the call me a while. Yeah. See? 48 00:03:30.750 --> 00:03:33.630 yourself. I mean, we don't want to wait, wait too much. Too many 49 00:03:33.630 --> 00:03:39.300 times people will start turning. Yeah. I don't think we change 50 00:03:39.300 --> 00:03:39.930 anything. So 51 00:03:40.950 --> 00:03:42.390 as Chris came to say something because 52 00:03:42.510 --> 00:03:45.960 Chris, can you somebody who's remote just yell at us. 53 00:03:49.710 --> 00:03:55.920 There I can hear you. Curtis they're all at lunch or you can 54 00:03:55.920 --> 00:03:56.250 hear you 55 00:04:02.880 --> 00:04:05.040 so Steve, why don't you say something and then 56 00:04:06.870 --> 00:04:11.100 I'll just add on to what you said the same wager for omega 57 00:04:11.130 --> 00:04:13.560 originally it was from Josh lab ranking 58 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:14.220 student labs. 59 00:04:15.480 --> 00:04:20.850 PhD work I don't remember exactly the year I think I you 60 00:04:20.850 --> 00:04:24.630 know, went up to Livermore property in 91. Maybe 92. With 61 00:04:24.900 --> 00:04:30.270 with Bob and met Mike. And of course I came in there 90 And 62 00:04:30.330 --> 00:04:37.050 then it wasn't until like Oh 94 That I took or the Omega upgrade 63 00:04:37.080 --> 00:04:42.960 that was struggling a little bit and ended up getting finished 64 00:04:42.960 --> 00:04:49.230 and and then that the air of a EP I guess there's at the end of 65 00:04:49.230 --> 00:04:56.310 that. And I can remember we came up with the concept of EP. And 66 00:04:57.570 --> 00:05:01.950 Bob said we're not going to go up I should stay here. Because I 67 00:05:01.950 --> 00:05:05.850 was about ready to retire. I volunteered to stay and I stayed 68 00:05:05.850 --> 00:05:10.860 through the EPA. And I've done a little bit part time ever since 69 00:05:10.860 --> 00:05:14.640 and enjoyed, enjoyed it tremendously. And the biggest 70 00:05:14.640 --> 00:05:18.360 thing I would say about Mike is thank you for absolutely saving 71 00:05:18.360 --> 00:05:22.800 the laboratory when we had the extinction function. That was 72 00:05:22.830 --> 00:05:27.630 that was a heroic effort, and also to expand and develop the 73 00:05:27.630 --> 00:05:32.250 ongoing strategy for the laboratory. And great thanks to 74 00:05:32.250 --> 00:05:35.520 Mike for us. Well, thank you, Steve. 75 00:05:37.350 --> 00:05:42.450 And my current Mark Herman. I hope you're on board you we 76 00:05:42.450 --> 00:05:44.310 haven't heard I don't think we've heard from him though. 77 00:05:44.310 --> 00:05:54.270 Only I was paying attention. Three to one. Okay, so Chris is 78 00:05:54.270 --> 00:06:02.040 on there. All right. Can you? Can you unmute and introduce 79 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:02.610 yourself? 80 00:06:03.900 --> 00:06:05.010 We see your lips moving, but 81 00:06:05.010 --> 00:06:08.610 we can't see the There we go. 82 00:06:09.030 --> 00:06:11.040 You see me? Yep. 83 00:06:12.690 --> 00:06:17.910 Okay, terrific. I can't see you yet. But it took a while to get 84 00:06:17.910 --> 00:06:23.940 the password all figured out. So, let's see. So what do you 85 00:06:23.940 --> 00:06:25.560 want me to say who I am? 86 00:06:26.340 --> 00:06:28.740 Yeah, just give a quick introduction, who you are, and 87 00:06:29.130 --> 00:06:31.500 maybe a little, little relationship, your relationship 88 00:06:31.500 --> 00:06:33.810 to Mike. But we'll get into that in more detail during this 89 00:06:33.810 --> 00:06:34.200 session. 90 00:06:36.030 --> 00:06:47.670 So my mic insists that I'm his father. Which, which is okay by 91 00:06:47.670 --> 00:06:54.780 me by except that my my, my wife, Marilyn, is never accepted 92 00:06:54.780 --> 00:06:58.740 that Ouch. 93 00:07:04.320 --> 00:07:08.280 You can put all those relationships together what? So 94 00:07:08.280 --> 00:07:15.540 I've been trying to think about how to start I wanna, and we'll 95 00:07:15.540 --> 00:07:18.930 get into the stewardship later, perhaps of somebody asked me a 96 00:07:18.930 --> 00:07:21.660 question, because I'm prepared to answer the first question. 97 00:07:21.660 --> 00:07:26.910 But all I know about Mike, when, as I remember him, was he knew a 98 00:07:26.910 --> 00:07:38.460 lot about dinosaurs. He played the guitar reasonably well. made 99 00:07:38.460 --> 00:07:41.880 wonderful caricatures of people. And he really had a very nice 100 00:07:41.880 --> 00:07:47.640 family. And I'm saying that not as his, you know, as his virtual 101 00:07:47.640 --> 00:07:51.750 father. But he really does. I didn't know anything about 102 00:07:51.750 --> 00:07:54.780 lasers or any of that kind of stuff. And so we'll we'll get to 103 00:07:54.780 --> 00:07:58.650 that later. If anybody asked me a question. That's, that's all I 104 00:07:58.650 --> 00:08:03.480 have to say about my All right. Well, 105 00:08:03.930 --> 00:08:08.700 I captured the I'll call the proto questions that were on the 106 00:08:10.440 --> 00:08:13.860 the notice, if you will, of this symposium, I put together a 107 00:08:13.860 --> 00:08:15.960 bunch of others that I want to ask, and I'm gonna leave them up 108 00:08:16.350 --> 00:08:19.050 there so people can Yeah, 109 00:08:19.200 --> 00:08:23.670 I see that. Thought McCrory is unmuted and like period be with 110 00:08:23.670 --> 00:08:24.810 you in a few minutes. 111 00:08:25.380 --> 00:08:28.680 Oh, great, Bob. Yeah, introduce yourself. I mean, we all know 112 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:31.380 you, but some of the younger folks probably don't. So. 113 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:42.810 Have you heard that Bob, if you can just do a quick 114 00:08:42.810 --> 00:08:46.080 introduction. And then we'll get into the session with different 115 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:48.360 questions and around, you know, roundtable discussions. 116 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:52.110 Okay. Yeah, I did hear it. What do you want me to talk about? 117 00:08:52.980 --> 00:08:54.840 Well, just to introduce yourself, and then we're gonna 118 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:57.240 get into questions. We'll go roundtable style through 119 00:08:57.240 --> 00:08:59.640 questions and just general general. 120 00:09:02.010 --> 00:09:06.450 I started my life in this business at Los Alamos moved to 121 00:09:06.450 --> 00:09:12.030 the University of Rochester and I was director at the Lee about 122 00:09:12.030 --> 00:09:15.360 as long as the cameras have been in charge of things in North 123 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:30.870 Korea. So I've seen $1.6 billion dollars, which isn't bad record. 124 00:09:31.290 --> 00:09:36.090 And luckily, when I left, we were able to attract Mike and 125 00:09:36.390 --> 00:09:39.780 Seligman. I kind of deal with Schermer to be sure and defend 126 00:09:39.780 --> 00:09:44.700 our 80 million that was supposed to be coming from DOE, DOE had 127 00:09:44.700 --> 00:09:48.600 other plans, they decided who I left to be a good time to tell 128 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:53.790 the lab that they had three years to wait to die. And so 129 00:09:53.790 --> 00:09:59.040 Mike, we got to shepherd the lab to those trying times, but we've 130 00:09:59.040 --> 00:10:04.380 come out the other side. looking fine. And I want to my ex 5000 131 00:10:04.380 --> 00:10:05.490 closest friends 132 00:10:07.770 --> 00:10:14.550 and your Bob. All right. 133 00:10:15.810 --> 00:10:19.110 And anyone else who was on the list that I had earlier, if you 134 00:10:19.110 --> 00:10:22.320 want to chime in and let you know, raise your hand we'll try, 135 00:10:22.470 --> 00:10:26.550 people will help me see that pop up. So there were a bunch of 136 00:10:26.550 --> 00:10:28.740 questions or three questions that were kind of feed 137 00:10:28.740 --> 00:10:32.040 questions. I'm just gonna you all read them there. What were 138 00:10:32.040 --> 00:10:34.680 the major challenges getting Stockpile Stewardship moving 139 00:10:34.680 --> 00:10:38.190 forward? ICF facilities were major investments for the time 140 00:10:38.190 --> 00:10:40.560 what motivated the investments and kept the momentum through 141 00:10:40.560 --> 00:10:44.550 the struggles petawatt lasers became a technological reality, 142 00:10:44.550 --> 00:10:48.420 how does the out of the impact research directions? And there's 143 00:10:48.420 --> 00:10:51.240 some other that during the course of this morning's 144 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:54.420 discussion, which I think very naturally flows in, you know, 145 00:10:54.450 --> 00:10:58.170 history is not not discrete? It's, it's a continuum. And 146 00:10:58.170 --> 00:11:02.100 actually, it tends to repeat itself, in my experience, a good 147 00:11:02.100 --> 00:11:04.470 ideas that came from the early days that maybe weren't 148 00:11:04.470 --> 00:11:08.760 technologically ready, have come along. And so I'll, I'll flash 149 00:11:08.790 --> 00:11:16.230 across those. But I figured we would we go one by one, or if 150 00:11:16.230 --> 00:11:19.530 people want to raise their hands on the topics, we'll use Zoom 151 00:11:19.530 --> 00:11:22.470 etiquette and try to go in the order that they they raise their 152 00:11:22.470 --> 00:11:28.470 hands. Actually on the stewardship. Yeah. And so Chris 153 00:11:28.470 --> 00:11:30.720 is just suggesting, and it's where I was going to go with 154 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:33.270 what were the major challenges getting Stockpile Stewardship 155 00:11:33.270 --> 00:11:37.650 moving forward? I think Vic has a lot to say about that. Being 156 00:11:37.650 --> 00:11:42.180 the father of stockpile stewardship? No, he's the 157 00:11:42.180 --> 00:11:44.670 grandfather of stockpile stewardship. And Mike is the 158 00:11:44.670 --> 00:11:45.210 father of. 159 00:11:47.670 --> 00:11:53.070 Yeah, and I won't go into the specifics of the relationship. 160 00:11:55.350 --> 00:11:58.530 Let me let me, let me tell you, let me spend a few minutes on 161 00:11:58.560 --> 00:12:02.130 Stockpile Stewardship in general, I won't go into and 162 00:12:02.130 --> 00:12:08.040 we're NIF and laser and set play briefly, and then I'll shut up 163 00:12:08.040 --> 00:12:11.460 and let everybody else talk because they had basically had 164 00:12:11.460 --> 00:12:15.450 to do with it. The idea of Stockpile Stewardship really 165 00:12:15.450 --> 00:12:23.040 started with back end with President Clinton. When he was 166 00:12:23.040 --> 00:12:26.250 running for office, he said he really wanted to get a 167 00:12:26.850 --> 00:12:34.710 Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. And then on July 3 of the 1993. 168 00:12:36.270 --> 00:12:42.930 He he said in a speech, he said, to ensure that our nuclear 169 00:12:42.930 --> 00:12:48.180 deterrent remains unquestioned under a testbed, we will explore 170 00:12:48.180 --> 00:12:52.410 other means of maintaining our confidence in the safety, the 171 00:12:52.410 --> 00:12:57.930 reliability and performance of our own nuclear weapons. And 172 00:12:57.930 --> 00:13:04.800 that's as far as the way he the he lifted to us. Really 173 00:13:04.800 --> 00:13:08.370 department of energy in the labs. You guys hear me what that 174 00:13:08.370 --> 00:13:17.190 meant? Okay, and I would point out right now, just how not that 175 00:13:17.190 --> 00:13:22.710 there's any suspense. But that was almost that was almost 30 176 00:13:22.710 --> 00:13:27.600 years ago, in fact, in December 23, or 99, was our last test. 177 00:13:28.470 --> 00:13:31.950 And we've actually maintained that confidence in the 178 00:13:31.950 --> 00:13:37.290 stockpile. And it's really quite up to date. I mean, if you think 179 00:13:37.290 --> 00:13:44.160 about where we are right now with Russia, and doing all that, 180 00:13:44.400 --> 00:13:49.800 right, Putin in Ukraine and oil that nuclear is saber rattling, 181 00:13:49.800 --> 00:13:55.500 and so forth and so on. Nobody has ever has question that are 182 00:13:55.530 --> 00:14:00.270 the confidence in our ability to the safety reliability 183 00:14:00.270 --> 00:14:04.890 performance of our own Welcome to do enter your meeting. Id 184 00:14:04.920 --> 00:14:13.350 followed by tap. Join that was Russia. 185 00:14:16.530 --> 00:14:20.040 I can't I don't matter how to mute. can you mute? i You got 186 00:14:20.040 --> 00:14:26.130 it. You got to mute. Or? Yeah, sorry. But that's joined with an 187 00:14:26.130 --> 00:14:26.640 open mic. 188 00:14:27.780 --> 00:14:34.230 I want to I want I just want to leave that with everybody in 189 00:14:34.230 --> 00:14:39.360 that. There was a lot of question. What are there any of 190 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:45.150 this would work at all? Considerable skepticism back and 191 00:14:45.210 --> 00:14:49.710 get back almost 30 years ago, and here we are. The proof is 192 00:14:49.710 --> 00:14:55.140 really in the serious pudding that this thing is actually is 193 00:14:55.140 --> 00:15:03.060 actually worked. So how did it get started? that I was the 194 00:15:03.060 --> 00:15:09.330 ended up being the assistant secretary of energy at the time, 195 00:15:09.330 --> 00:15:12.390 there was no Internet, say there's still foreign defense 196 00:15:12.390 --> 00:15:15.690 programs. And it was our responsibility to put that 197 00:15:15.690 --> 00:15:18.870 together. And so what I what I did, and I frankly, didn't know 198 00:15:18.870 --> 00:15:22.440 that much about nuclear weapons, even though I've been in the 199 00:15:23.010 --> 00:15:26.580 nuclear, in the defense business for quite a while, didn't know 200 00:15:26.610 --> 00:15:32.340 that much about the details. So I called together I called up 201 00:15:32.340 --> 00:15:35.910 the laboratory directors and they said, Hey, give me two guys 202 00:15:35.910 --> 00:15:42.450 from each other, each of the labs and willing, you know, we 203 00:15:42.450 --> 00:15:46.380 got met in a room and I said, you know, give us a day or two, 204 00:15:46.710 --> 00:15:54.300 we'll try to figure this out. And we did the, and there was, 205 00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:59.790 uh, you know, George Miller and Jake fourtner. from Livermore, 206 00:15:59.790 --> 00:16:05.340 John Emily, John Brown from Los Alamos, Roger Hagen, rover. And 207 00:16:07.170 --> 00:16:10.260 Jerry Yona said, you know, I thought I was the guy. And 208 00:16:10.260 --> 00:16:13.080 again, the only fed there, there were just seven of us in the 209 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:17.250 room. So I said, Let's start out by figuring out how many weapons 210 00:16:17.250 --> 00:16:20.220 that we toy, let's go to 10 years, 15 years from now, let's 211 00:16:20.220 --> 00:16:22.980 figure it's just guess at what the number of weapons we had to 212 00:16:22.980 --> 00:16:30.060 deal with. We did 3500 plus or minus 1500, which ended up 213 00:16:30.060 --> 00:16:33.600 pretty, pretty close, pretty good guess. And I said, let's 214 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:36.930 assume we have no, no designs at all, we're just going to live 215 00:16:36.930 --> 00:16:41.310 with the weapons that we, we have. And let's assume we have 216 00:16:41.310 --> 00:16:46.950 an annual budget of around $4 billion or so a year, which was 217 00:16:47.160 --> 00:16:51.420 a little bit more than the budget. So I said, suppose then 218 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:56.790 what we do is think about what we do in each laboratory. Each 219 00:16:56.790 --> 00:17:01.710 laboratory gets one at least one major new project that they 220 00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:08.730 they'll pick of their choice. And then each will get a major. 221 00:17:09.450 --> 00:17:12.060 Again, what I'm sorry about each lab tear, it gets a third of the 222 00:17:12.060 --> 00:17:17.310 budget, gets a a major new experimental facility, and each 223 00:17:17.310 --> 00:17:21.600 laboratory gets a big computer. And again, this is their choice. 224 00:17:21.810 --> 00:17:25.890 I was not going to change one way or another. And Livermore, 225 00:17:26.970 --> 00:17:30.780 you know, no surprise strobes, the National Ignition Facility, 226 00:17:30.780 --> 00:17:35.610 which had not been, you know, was was just an idea at that 227 00:17:35.850 --> 00:17:39.840 time, it had it had been rolled through and Ben was playing 228 00:17:39.840 --> 00:17:46.020 around, and I said, Okay, that's what, that's what we do. The 229 00:17:46.020 --> 00:17:50.460 other, you know, Los Alamos chose the dark, and accelerated 230 00:17:50.460 --> 00:17:57.360 production at trinium. And live from sad, I chose my Mesa micro 231 00:17:57.360 --> 00:18:02.640 electronics facility and, and does ething. Well, okay, and 232 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:06.540 they got started. And we basically put put it together, 233 00:18:07.050 --> 00:18:10.350 just about the way it was going. And I'm only going to mention 234 00:18:10.380 --> 00:18:15.990 just briefly, what what was so remarkable about all this, of 235 00:18:15.990 --> 00:18:21.780 course, is that two of those, the National Ignition Facility, 236 00:18:22.560 --> 00:18:27.720 and the computing really changed not just the specifics of 237 00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:32.610 Stockpile Stewardship, but the whole fields themselves became 238 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:36.090 very, very different. And now, I'm sure you'll hear all about 239 00:18:36.090 --> 00:18:40.920 that national natural condition facility. I mean, that's what 240 00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:47.850 this is all about normal lasers, but it's really remarkable how 241 00:18:47.850 --> 00:18:57.990 much how that essentially created a whole major feel of 242 00:18:57.990 --> 00:19:02.760 science, I just took a look a little while ago, and, you know, 243 00:19:02.760 --> 00:19:03.450 over, 244 00:19:04.860 --> 00:19:13.530 over Best Buy in 20 by 20,000. By 2020 or so, you know, the mid 245 00:19:13.530 --> 00:19:18.420 over 2000 refereed journal articles. I mean, and it isn't 246 00:19:18.420 --> 00:19:23.610 just in Livermore, and Rochester, but it's a whole 247 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:29.400 field all over the all over the country and all over the world 248 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:34.920 really has has made that in. And of course, you'll hear over and 249 00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:40.740 over again, how central Mike was. To all of that happened. 250 00:19:40.740 --> 00:19:46.680 And just the, again, the remarkable amount of work that's 251 00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:51.360 been done and done. I'll just mention the other one. Because 252 00:19:51.390 --> 00:19:54.360 the other one was the advanced strategic Computing Initiative. 253 00:19:55.320 --> 00:20:01.680 And just because I'm going to do that I was just, I think it was 254 00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:07.770 yesterday, the day they they top foreign primary again, in this 255 00:20:07.770 --> 00:20:11.880 case it was Oak Ridge. But it was the whole idea of the mass 256 00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:19.140 of the MPP, the massively Planning Program, which, you 257 00:20:19.140 --> 00:20:23.520 know, which which made a major, it's just changed things. And at 258 00:20:23.520 --> 00:20:31.380 the time, people were, you know, we pushed on, we said, well, we 259 00:20:31.380 --> 00:20:36.780 need 100 teraflops in 10 years, everybody laughed, they Oh, no, 260 00:20:36.780 --> 00:20:42.120 you can't basically that, you know, that will change the be 261 00:20:42.120 --> 00:20:46.290 too difficult to basically do that the Jason's that study and 262 00:20:46.290 --> 00:20:51.000 said not now, that's, that's too risky, what were, and so forth 263 00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:56.400 and so on. And of course, it worked. We were on schedule for 264 00:20:56.940 --> 00:21:01.890 teraflop. And then we did 100 teraflops, and we kept basically 265 00:21:01.890 --> 00:21:06.690 ignoring our an exaflop. And that's a lot of, you know, we're 266 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:09.540 we're talking six orders of magnitude over where we were 267 00:21:09.540 --> 00:21:13.290 before. And I'll point out the budget in defense programs for 268 00:21:13.290 --> 00:21:18.360 advanced computing at the time, was about was $10 million. 269 00:21:19.260 --> 00:21:23.160 Obviously, we spent a lot more. So in both the national, the 270 00:21:23.160 --> 00:21:27.990 key, I think that what was so remarkable about all of this is 271 00:21:27.990 --> 00:21:32.940 one, we did exactly what President Clinton suggested, we 272 00:21:32.940 --> 00:21:36.390 maintain the confidence of our stockpile, in fact, people 273 00:21:36.390 --> 00:21:39.720 suggest we're even more confident now, but that the 274 00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:46.620 nuclear weapons will work. But also the the whole laser fusion, 275 00:21:46.650 --> 00:21:53.400 the whole, that whole bit of science was was essentially, it 276 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:57.720 wasn't quite started from scratch. But it was the rate at 277 00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:02.760 which it went to and the depth was really quite remarkable in 278 00:22:02.760 --> 00:22:07.770 that same similar thing. In fact, perhaps even more, 279 00:22:08.670 --> 00:22:11.820 ascending was in that computing. So that's what stockpile 280 00:22:13.710 --> 00:22:19.110 stewardship was about? And we'll hear a lot more I'm sure about 281 00:22:19.110 --> 00:22:26.010 the fusion work across the country and across the world. 282 00:22:26.010 --> 00:22:34.440 And, you know, and the key role that Mike, Mike Campbell, played 283 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:38.790 in all that. So that was my answer to the first question. So 284 00:22:39.150 --> 00:22:39.660 great. 285 00:22:40.080 --> 00:22:44.010 Thanks, Vic. I love hearing the fact that the there was a top 286 00:22:44.010 --> 00:22:48.570 level guidance, go do this big, big guidance, and then the 287 00:22:48.570 --> 00:22:51.150 people who are supposed to who were charged with doing it had 288 00:22:51.150 --> 00:22:54.810 to figure it out. And it seems to work pretty well. I you know, 289 00:22:54.810 --> 00:22:57.060 I'm sure there were hiccups along the way and some sweaty, 290 00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:01.440 sweaty teary moments, but we are in a stronger position. I thank 291 00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:06.570 you for your leadership and Mike as well. And, and so many people 292 00:23:06.600 --> 00:23:13.380 in the community who who've made it possible. They have a big 293 00:23:13.380 --> 00:23:16.260 grin on this sort of behind 294 00:23:16.260 --> 00:23:21.600 the scenes governments. As well, Hazel O'Leary was the secretary 295 00:23:21.600 --> 00:23:27.780 when when Vic started doing his stuff, and Stockpile Stewardship 296 00:23:27.780 --> 00:23:32.940 and literally, though I'm sure he never intended it that way. 297 00:23:34.230 --> 00:23:38.880 big jar depends off. And she really came through and 298 00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:45.630 supported Stockpile Stewardship and the NIF. And a little bit 299 00:23:45.630 --> 00:23:48.960 later, it came time for the next critical the first critical 300 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.560 decision on NIF was done by Jim Watkins on his very last morning 301 00:23:52.560 --> 00:23:58.440 in office. And the next one was done at Livermore, by Hazel and 302 00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:06.150 Mike made that happen that Rick and Chelsea helped. So, Vic, you 303 00:24:06.150 --> 00:24:09.540 have any comments about the role of Hazel and their stockpile 304 00:24:09.540 --> 00:24:10.050 stewardship? 305 00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:12.360 Yes. Okay. So 306 00:24:14.280 --> 00:24:17.370 by the way, Vic has a wonderful talk about Stockpile Stewardship 307 00:24:17.370 --> 00:24:20.190 and some writings that I recommend anybody who wants to 308 00:24:20.190 --> 00:24:20.340 know 309 00:24:22.080 --> 00:24:30.210 I'm telling, ya know, that was an interesting the, this was 310 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:33.600 before we might make me that next, if you will, critical 311 00:24:33.600 --> 00:24:37.530 decision, you know, first of all, you had to be sure that 312 00:24:37.530 --> 00:24:40.260 this was still going in the right direction. And I said, you 313 00:24:40.260 --> 00:24:44.910 know, I felt pretty comfortable that that it was that it was 314 00:24:44.910 --> 00:24:50.700 going and so I went but that required the the that require 315 00:24:50.700 --> 00:24:55.080 the director or mean, sorry, the Secretary to sign off on that. 316 00:24:55.080 --> 00:25:00.120 So I went and talked to him. I said, Okay, so we always talk I 317 00:25:00.360 --> 00:25:11.970 first name basis. I called her Hazel. She called me, Reese. You 318 00:25:11.970 --> 00:25:17.700 know, this, this is you've got to start thinking about your 319 00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:21.090 legacy as the Secretary and I said, you're going to be known 320 00:25:21.090 --> 00:25:25.800 for your travel, you're going to be known for all the things, you 321 00:25:25.800 --> 00:25:31.770 know your little that I know, right? I said, But, you know, 322 00:25:31.770 --> 00:25:36.870 the Department of Energy is also known for its big projects is 323 00:25:36.870 --> 00:25:42.840 great, big, exciting science projects. And you'll be known as 324 00:25:42.840 --> 00:25:46.290 the secretary who killed that superconducting supercollider. 325 00:25:49.740 --> 00:25:52.650 But I said, Look, there's an opportunity here with the 326 00:25:52.650 --> 00:25:57.540 National Ignition Facility. Because that's it. It really is 327 00:25:57.540 --> 00:26:02.310 at that level of a great new, great new project, though, I 328 00:26:02.310 --> 00:26:05.970 gotta tell you, there's a lot of pushback against that even in 329 00:26:05.970 --> 00:26:09.960 the White House. Well, that encouraged her, she wasn't going 330 00:26:09.960 --> 00:26:13.440 to be told by either me or the White House what to do. I said, 331 00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:20.280 but but I want but could you do me a favor, go out to look 332 00:26:20.370 --> 00:26:26.460 Livermore and talk to the people or yourself? Okay, and get your 333 00:26:26.460 --> 00:26:29.610 own feeling as to what it is. And she actually had a pretty 334 00:26:29.610 --> 00:26:35.430 good sense of, you know, that, that lines and and then make 335 00:26:35.430 --> 00:26:37.590 your, you know, make your decision that way? And of 336 00:26:37.590 --> 00:26:41.850 course, she did. And we still have a very famous picture of 337 00:26:41.850 --> 00:26:46.230 her standing with, with Chelsea, you know, and I don't know how 338 00:26:46.230 --> 00:26:49.200 Mike did it. And I don't know how Chelsea but you know, I was 339 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:57.600 pretty comfortable that he would he would convince her by not 340 00:26:57.600 --> 00:27:00.870 just the force of not just because of his personality, but 341 00:27:00.870 --> 00:27:05.670 the strength of his in the strength of the program and the 342 00:27:05.670 --> 00:27:09.030 vision that he had in terms of why that went together. And she 343 00:27:09.030 --> 00:27:13.260 got it. And she signed, you know, and she signed off on it, 344 00:27:13.260 --> 00:27:18.930 of course, and the rest is the rest is some some history. And 345 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:22.950 I'm sure most of you were involved in that. I'm sure many 346 00:27:22.950 --> 00:27:27.930 of you were among the 2000 people who were co authors of 347 00:27:27.930 --> 00:27:32.160 that latest paper. I'm one of them. David's, everybody here is 348 00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:36.420 probably one of them as well. So it's bitter. It was a sort of 349 00:27:36.420 --> 00:27:41.970 remarkable story. And I think her contribution was was really 350 00:27:41.970 --> 00:27:43.140 important ones as well. 351 00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:47.910 Like, go ahead, so 352 00:27:47.910 --> 00:27:50.940 pick one of the things, you know the Oh, it's good with a good 353 00:27:50.940 --> 00:27:54.030 sense of humor. You always talked about NIF and high 354 00:27:54.030 --> 00:27:57.300 performance computing, as Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers, you 355 00:27:57.300 --> 00:28:00.750 remember that used to make that used to say that that's how they 356 00:28:00.750 --> 00:28:04.020 work together to benefit each other. Remember that 357 00:28:05.130 --> 00:28:09.660 that was been expurgated. What I what I said some firms have 358 00:28:10.290 --> 00:28:14.910 Livermore Livermore working with IBM, 359 00:28:16.410 --> 00:28:17.160 which I've heard 360 00:28:20.190 --> 00:28:27.840 this is the first step you know, to one of the first major 361 00:28:27.840 --> 00:28:32.010 machines and they were very different in style, in fact that 362 00:28:32.340 --> 00:28:38.610 I quoted I quoted Pauline Kael in the New Yorker talking about 363 00:28:38.610 --> 00:28:43.680 Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. And I said that was that was the 364 00:28:43.710 --> 00:28:47.970 she said that he gave her class and she gave him sex 365 00:28:53.340 --> 00:28:56.100 I got it. I met one of these major meetings and somehow 366 00:28:56.100 --> 00:28:59.250 rather Livermore took that off the and I said I don't know 367 00:28:59.250 --> 00:29:03.600 who's witches which which is friend of witches, ginger, but 368 00:29:03.600 --> 00:29:06.600 they certainly know how to dance together something like that. 369 00:29:09.900 --> 00:29:12.570 That was going to ask in that that relationship. 370 00:29:19.230 --> 00:29:25.140 Mike is wonderful at getting people to do almost anything. I 371 00:29:25.140 --> 00:29:29.850 have plenty of evidence in my case, but Vic has some too. We 372 00:29:29.850 --> 00:29:32.550 didn't have televideo and fix office but he likes to talk to 373 00:29:32.550 --> 00:29:36.960 Mike off on the mic often golden. Mike sends him an eight 374 00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:40.830 by 10 Picture photograph of himself. And then whenever he 375 00:29:40.830 --> 00:29:42.960 gets on the phone with Vicki says Vic, have you got the 376 00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:49.380 picture out? Get the picture out. So who you're talking to 377 00:29:49.380 --> 00:29:49.770 Mike? 378 00:29:50.550 --> 00:29:53.760 All right. So I think we've, you know, started touching on the 379 00:29:53.760 --> 00:29:56.850 second question about the major investments of their time myth 380 00:29:56.850 --> 00:30:01.530 being one of them and some of the others and maybe we've 381 00:30:01.530 --> 00:30:04.410 already touched on a bunch of these topics, but what motivated 382 00:30:04.410 --> 00:30:06.960 the investments and kept the momentum through all the 383 00:30:06.990 --> 00:30:10.710 struggles? Because there were I mean, NIF and and other major 384 00:30:10.710 --> 00:30:16.320 facilities are always big jobs and nothing. I don't say 385 00:30:16.320 --> 00:30:20.730 nothing, but rarely do things go monotonically or in a straight 386 00:30:20.760 --> 00:30:23.910 line, and I'm sort of interested in hearing some of the history 387 00:30:24.330 --> 00:30:28.050 behind the headlines that may have taken less right for you 388 00:30:28.050 --> 00:30:32.490 turns, and how do they get straightened out and keep going? 389 00:30:32.490 --> 00:30:35.010 Because NIF is a is a great operating facility. And one of 390 00:30:35.010 --> 00:30:39.630 my questions coming down later is how us your facilities have 391 00:30:39.660 --> 00:30:44.700 have propelled the fist propelled the field in the 392 00:30:44.700 --> 00:30:48.390 program. And you can't propel the field in the program for 393 00:30:48.390 --> 00:30:53.730 users unless you've got facilities. So anybody raise 394 00:30:53.730 --> 00:30:57.060 their hands, Chris? Good. Yeah. To see smiling. That is 395 00:30:57.840 --> 00:31:00.390 my answer question around about, you know, you know, sadness 396 00:31:00.390 --> 00:31:04.350 started, you know, and then, you know, seems to be going pretty 397 00:31:04.350 --> 00:31:08.520 well from the outside, you know, up until the, you know, nifty 398 00:31:08.520 --> 00:31:12.420 and the chamber. And so, you know, so there's a funny story 399 00:31:12.420 --> 00:31:15.960 about Rick Spielman related to that. But too, we can talk about 400 00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:18.810 that more later. But you know, that, you know, that was the 401 00:31:18.900 --> 00:31:22.020 first crisis. And so I mean, Dave was heavily involved with 402 00:31:22.020 --> 00:31:25.680 Chris keen on, you know, getting through that, you know, so 403 00:31:26.340 --> 00:31:31.890 the next day was sort of my beginning to see that we were in 404 00:31:31.890 --> 00:31:37.170 trouble. And then Joe Kilkenny came in, I could give you a 405 00:31:37.170 --> 00:31:40.590 precise date, but he came in to Chris Gaines office and sat down 406 00:31:40.590 --> 00:31:46.380 and said, Dave, we're not going to get there. within budget. And 407 00:31:46.380 --> 00:31:49.920 then so lots of things happen, including bad things with Mike. 408 00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:56.580 And it was a difficult time, but probably the biggest mistake I 409 00:31:56.580 --> 00:32:02.250 made in my career is on on Nick day. We got on the bus, Vic told 410 00:32:02.250 --> 00:32:07.200 me that he'd just been fired. Wasn't public knowledge. So then 411 00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:10.140 all this came up shortly after that, that Nick was in trouble. 412 00:32:10.620 --> 00:32:15.630 And I didn't tell Rick, because he was going up. And I should 413 00:32:15.630 --> 00:32:15.900 have. 414 00:32:17.970 --> 00:32:21.330 Yeah, that was a shocking thing when he said, you know, cost and 415 00:32:21.330 --> 00:32:21.870 schedule. 416 00:32:22.620 --> 00:32:26.250 That, you know, remember, I had an I had an inkling from the 417 00:32:26.250 --> 00:32:32.340 morning meeting that we had that Wednesday, that we were and I 418 00:32:32.790 --> 00:32:35.820 thought for a moment and I should have done this, just to 419 00:32:36.030 --> 00:32:43.620 call up to his office and say, don't say on cross. That easy, 420 00:32:43.620 --> 00:32:43.950 actually. 421 00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:48.810 Dave, now you tell me 422 00:33:00.870 --> 00:33:01.890 you're spreading. 423 00:33:03.480 --> 00:33:06.000 But when you talk about you know, there was, you know, the 424 00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:10.290 hub of a community called the arms and there were some, again, 425 00:33:10.590 --> 00:33:14.580 remodeling of the labs to try to get back behind it for that time 426 00:33:14.580 --> 00:33:15.120 as well was, 427 00:33:15.659 --> 00:33:20.699 Well, Bill Richardson blamed me and Bruce tarter. And he was 428 00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:23.520 actually, 429 00:33:23.970 --> 00:33:26.400 he blamed already fired, so it didn't matter. 430 00:33:27.600 --> 00:33:32.400 Already been fired. But he got he got a committee all put 431 00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:38.460 together. And their whole, the whole purpose was to blame, you 432 00:33:38.460 --> 00:33:42.000 know, to figure out what was who won. I think they were going to 433 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:47.730 try to kill it. But all they did was blame me and because it was 434 00:33:47.730 --> 00:33:52.140 easy to blame me assignment fired and Bruce. I'm not sure 435 00:33:52.140 --> 00:33:53.610 they blame you day, but, 436 00:33:54.420 --> 00:33:58.830 boy, yes, they did. Okay. And in person. 437 00:33:59.850 --> 00:34:02.670 Well, they didn't do it in person with me. But in fact, 438 00:34:03.030 --> 00:34:06.840 John McCain, who was on that committee, called me up and 439 00:34:06.840 --> 00:34:10.080 said, We didn't blame you. We didn't blame Bruce. We didn't 440 00:34:10.080 --> 00:34:17.850 we, you know, and, but they, they had to go there. They, they 441 00:34:17.850 --> 00:34:22.890 were forced to do that. You know, I mean, you you have to 442 00:34:22.890 --> 00:34:26.010 find a skateboard and that sort of thing. So, but that's 443 00:34:26.010 --> 00:34:31.950 alright. You know, that's part of what's right. Sure. But 444 00:34:33.270 --> 00:34:38.430 one of the major meetings with, I was summoned all the time. And 445 00:34:38.430 --> 00:34:41.730 there were meetings with Bill Richardson and Ernie Moniz was 446 00:34:41.730 --> 00:34:45.750 deputy secretary or Undersecretary at the table. And 447 00:34:45.750 --> 00:34:51.810 then on 30 Moniz is office and I was personally blamed by Ernie 448 00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:58.890 in front of walkins. And he and I, he told me, I didn't mean it, 449 00:34:58.890 --> 00:35:03.060 but I had to do it. And after that I was I was expendable. 450 00:35:08.069 --> 00:35:13.049 Yeah, and you know, one thing I've always dealt myself and 451 00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:18.809 Mike personifies is you got to, you know, communicate, share the 452 00:35:18.809 --> 00:35:22.289 good, the bad and the ugly and figure out how to fix the ugly 453 00:35:22.289 --> 00:35:25.499 and the bad and turn it beautiful again, and it takes 454 00:35:25.499 --> 00:35:28.829 time. It takes effort. Sometimes there's some weapons involved. 455 00:35:29.549 --> 00:35:33.479 Okay. Comes with the territory. It's an important project, like 456 00:35:33.479 --> 00:35:42.389 NIST has been programmed. It'll survive. And, and it has. So 457 00:35:42.869 --> 00:35:46.499 interesting, interesting history. People get involved to 458 00:35:46.499 --> 00:35:55.949 them. That means I am on my soapbox provider. Yeah, yeah, 459 00:35:55.949 --> 00:35:59.819 we'll get above in a second. But it's, you know, it's important 460 00:35:59.819 --> 00:36:03.989 to be straight up as much as possible, without obviously 461 00:36:04.019 --> 00:36:06.899 divulging things that can't be too public or whatever. But you 462 00:36:06.929 --> 00:36:12.989 that's a very difficult balance to strike. But you try, right, 463 00:36:13.019 --> 00:36:17.309 you always try. So Bob, uh, you? Your mic off? I don't see your 464 00:36:17.309 --> 00:36:20.279 mic. Joe. Joe. 465 00:36:26.610 --> 00:36:31.740 Still, yeah. Go ahead. 466 00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:39.990 Joe, there was a little bit of echo going on. I think it's been 467 00:36:42.870 --> 00:36:48.720 it was difficult getting the lab to accept NIF really happens 468 00:36:48.720 --> 00:36:56.910 slowly on no vo word few people. But let me tell a story that 469 00:36:56.940 --> 00:37:02.700 gives you insight into Tata. So as Crandall said, I went to him 470 00:37:02.700 --> 00:37:04.890 a little while before and they said, Look, we're in trouble. 471 00:37:05.940 --> 00:37:09.420 And then pretty much the same week, Moses and I went to Tata, 472 00:37:09.870 --> 00:37:16.140 just before lunch on Friday, and explained to him what we thought 473 00:37:16.140 --> 00:37:21.060 the issue was. And when he might have been, he might be rushing 474 00:37:21.060 --> 00:37:25.080 out to lunch with an important person. But his final words to 475 00:37:25.080 --> 00:37:32.520 us were, well, let's see. You know, this not on a list. In 476 00:37:32.520 --> 00:37:35.430 fact, it's not even on the list. In fact, it's not even on the 477 00:37:35.430 --> 00:37:42.810 table, excuse me, I've got to go to lunch. And so of course, I 478 00:37:42.810 --> 00:37:47.280 was very surprised about that. It's, it shows how long it takes 479 00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:50.910 a project like the NIF to become important to the lab. It's 480 00:37:50.910 --> 00:37:56.160 certainly isn't like that now. But that's one of the 481 00:37:56.160 --> 00:37:59.220 difficulties getting stop our stewardship with lasers 482 00:37:59.220 --> 00:38:04.590 accepted, it took us 10 years to get people, some people to think 483 00:38:04.620 --> 00:38:08.070 that we could do useful experiments on Nova, like 484 00:38:08.070 --> 00:38:12.480 facilities relevant to nuclear weapons. In the end, we kind of 485 00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:18.360 did that. Most of the shots are now in its final year worth of a 486 00:38:18.360 --> 00:38:23.910 weapons program. And it just takes time. 487 00:38:26.490 --> 00:38:27.720 Yeah, I think 488 00:38:27.720 --> 00:38:32.370 to a large extent, we have succeeded. Let me be more 489 00:38:32.370 --> 00:38:37.860 positive. We had succeeded in our mission of getting ignition 490 00:38:37.890 --> 00:38:41.490 and getting the weapons program to accept the use of large ATT 491 00:38:41.490 --> 00:38:42.300 facilities. 492 00:38:45.510 --> 00:38:48.360 Alright, you can build your stage. I mean, that was one of 493 00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:54.000 the things that happened in you know, the timeframes. It's still 494 00:38:54.810 --> 00:38:57.840 part because of making the lab directors reconvened and 495 00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:04.950 regenerated a new white paper justifying why Neff would or the 496 00:39:05.220 --> 00:39:08.250 Stockpile Stewardship mission. And I think that's one of the 497 00:39:08.250 --> 00:39:13.080 things that go to that and Dave's intersect, just leading 498 00:39:13.080 --> 00:39:18.240 with the management of NSA regulate, or deregulate 499 00:39:18.240 --> 00:39:21.900 basically got us through that turbulent time, you know, so 500 00:39:21.900 --> 00:39:26.100 that that would eventually get completed. So but that's also 501 00:39:26.100 --> 00:39:39.150 when you were winded, Omega 60s. But that was driven by Congress, 502 00:39:39.870 --> 00:39:41.550 or by the department actually, 503 00:39:41.550 --> 00:39:46.350 the first part of it was through Congress, but after the first 504 00:39:46.350 --> 00:39:48.780 year, it was actually funded by SSA. 505 00:39:52.980 --> 00:40:00.090 All right, any more words. McCrory had sent me some I'm 506 00:40:00.090 --> 00:40:04.290 going to chat. He was ready. I hope he's on deck. Maybe 507 00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:09.780 I'm here. I don't see my picture on the camera, we either see you 508 00:40:09.810 --> 00:40:14.460 see me or you don't. They don't hear you. Thankfully we don't. 509 00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:24.000 Okay. I remember nifty well, and I remember getting a call from 510 00:40:24.660 --> 00:40:30.900 the Senate Appropriations Committee right away. And they 511 00:40:30.900 --> 00:40:36.030 said, Hey, what's going on? This thing was supposed to be doing 512 00:40:36.030 --> 00:40:39.240 well, now we're hearing this. And I said, Well, do you want 513 00:40:39.240 --> 00:40:42.540 the official answer or the right answer? And they said, Give me 514 00:40:42.540 --> 00:40:45.420 the right answer first. And I said, well, first of all, it's 515 00:40:45.420 --> 00:40:49.890 in deep trouble, because it's not in New Mexico, you know, so 516 00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:55.410 we're gonna be held to a higher standard. And at that, at that 517 00:40:55.410 --> 00:41:01.740 time, that was my perception that things at Los Alamos 518 00:41:02.070 --> 00:41:06.180 weren't scrutinized very much. But Neff, and the ICF program 519 00:41:06.420 --> 00:41:14.370 was under constant review, Gao reviews, you know, one after 520 00:41:14.370 --> 00:41:17.760 another. And so we went through it, and I said, Well, you know, 521 00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:22.170 it was tight. But quite frankly, it's a facility that can be 522 00:41:22.170 --> 00:41:25.830 gold, it should be built. I see nothing wrong with the design, 523 00:41:25.830 --> 00:41:29.730 the budget is not enough. And they said, Well, how much will 524 00:41:29.730 --> 00:41:33.660 be enough? I said, Well, you know, I don't know. But it's not 525 00:41:33.690 --> 00:41:37.200 it shouldn't be off by as much as some people were speculating. 526 00:41:37.200 --> 00:41:41.160 Now, it turned out I was wrong. Because when that Moses took 527 00:41:41.160 --> 00:41:45.330 over, there's never enough money. And so we went from 1.2 528 00:41:45.330 --> 00:41:50.430 billion to the sky's the limit, you know, and if at that point, 529 00:41:50.430 --> 00:41:53.460 I said, well, at some point, anybody could build it for this 530 00:41:53.460 --> 00:41:58.350 price. For the price, it's been advertised now, Alan Bromley 531 00:41:58.350 --> 00:42:02.940 called me and said, What the hell, Robert, you know, Alan was 532 00:42:02.940 --> 00:42:07.770 a crusty old guy. And at the time he was in, he's, he's the 533 00:42:07.770 --> 00:42:11.340 one that went to the admiral, and make sure that we got 534 00:42:11.340 --> 00:42:16.770 through the key decisions for this thing, but one time after 535 00:42:16.770 --> 00:42:22.290 another. People are always looking to take NIFS skull. You 536 00:42:22.290 --> 00:42:26.250 know, Richard soon is looking for heads to put on hikes to 537 00:42:26.250 --> 00:42:31.920 blame. And the appropriations committee was going around 538 00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:37.920 saying, Why are liar labs on fire and looking to cut it? Pete 539 00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:42.390 Domenici, he made a statement that he didn't want to hear that 540 00:42:42.390 --> 00:42:45.870 this thing was good for science, because we were building it for 541 00:42:45.870 --> 00:42:49.170 nuclear weapons. And if people came back to him and told him, 542 00:42:49.470 --> 00:42:52.440 it was gonna be great for science, he'd want to cancel the 543 00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:58.500 whole thing, because he wasn't ace. So it was under a lot of 544 00:42:58.500 --> 00:43:02.880 political attack. I remember going both to shore and Louise 545 00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:07.980 Slaughter, Louise Slaughter had a colloquy on the floor. To 546 00:43:07.980 --> 00:43:11.250 defend Neff, it took a lot of lifting to keep this patient 547 00:43:11.250 --> 00:43:16.320 breathing. And of course, the department was under fire, Dave 548 00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:20.850 Crandall was under fire, Steve Koonin got involved. Gao got 549 00:43:20.850 --> 00:43:26.130 involved twice. So there was just never any end to the 550 00:43:26.130 --> 00:43:29.880 mischief. And I remember having a meeting nothing victories, 551 00:43:29.880 --> 00:43:33.540 this little other office where they have the television 552 00:43:33.540 --> 00:43:37.260 facility for classified, and my Campbell kept going out of the 553 00:43:37.260 --> 00:43:41.190 room to talk on the phone. So at one point, he had brought a 554 00:43:41.190 --> 00:43:45.990 model of a whole room target, nicely prepared by the lab. And 555 00:43:45.990 --> 00:43:49.500 Vic looked at me and said, Bob, steal that thing. If, if Mike 556 00:43:49.500 --> 00:43:53.340 can't be in here, he deserves to lose something. And so I did, I 557 00:43:53.340 --> 00:44:02.070 still have made it through. And so the darkest days really, what 558 00:44:02.100 --> 00:44:05.580 were under the reign of terror of Ed Moses, in my opinion, and 559 00:44:05.580 --> 00:44:10.770 these are only my opinion. But this whole program has been 560 00:44:10.770 --> 00:44:15.600 covered by personality, some big, some small, some generous, 561 00:44:15.600 --> 00:44:21.570 some not so, but we made it through which is a miracle. You 562 00:44:21.570 --> 00:44:27.930 know, and the program got being oversold, because we weren't 563 00:44:27.930 --> 00:44:32.760 given a lot of choice. The original budget came in, I was 564 00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:36.060 on that committee and then there was another one of these 565 00:44:36.060 --> 00:44:40.470 financial reviews, I forgotten the, the guy's name Dan or 566 00:44:40.470 --> 00:44:43.560 something that worked for the office and energy layman. 567 00:44:45.060 --> 00:44:48.570 And there was a big review on that with all kinds of people, 568 00:44:49.170 --> 00:44:54.450 you know, and going through all this stuff, but it just seemed 569 00:44:54.450 --> 00:44:59.040 like we could never review this stuff enough. And Jerry Jonas, 570 00:44:59.040 --> 00:45:03.510 used to I can tell a story about a farmer who planted carrots. 571 00:45:03.900 --> 00:45:07.680 And every day, every week, he'd come out and he'd dig up a 572 00:45:07.680 --> 00:45:10.800 carrot, see what was coming. And you know, they were getting 573 00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:14.190 bigger and bigger, and he was really, really happy. So by the 574 00:45:14.190 --> 00:45:17.760 end of the season, he digs up the last carrot, and it's 575 00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:20.940 healthy, but it's the only one left. And they said, uh, you 576 00:45:20.940 --> 00:45:26.490 know, if you keep checking things too often, then, you 577 00:45:26.490 --> 00:45:30.540 know, you end up doing more injury. So it's kind of like the 578 00:45:30.540 --> 00:45:34.080 uncertainty principle, make too many measurements and you spoil 579 00:45:34.080 --> 00:45:38.460 everything. I'm not sure that will stand up to him. 580 00:45:39.420 --> 00:45:44.190 mathematical proof. But you know, the amazing thing is it 581 00:45:44.220 --> 00:45:48.030 actually got done. Yes, it was the elite. Yes, it was over 582 00:45:48.030 --> 00:45:51.780 budget. And you know, what's funny is when they had to shut 583 00:45:51.780 --> 00:45:55.410 down Nova, my Campbell's the guy that pulled the plug on that. 584 00:45:55.860 --> 00:45:57.960 And people said, What are we gonna use for stewardship, and 585 00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:01.200 he says, Use omega. And of course, the weapons guys who 586 00:46:01.230 --> 00:46:04.350 didn't want to use NIF. To start with the Denon were saying, we 587 00:46:04.350 --> 00:46:08.550 can't possibly know that we can't possibly do that without 588 00:46:08.550 --> 00:46:13.410 Nova. But then they came to Rochester. We can't possibly 589 00:46:13.410 --> 00:46:18.930 live without omega. But the weapons guys hate change, more 590 00:46:18.930 --> 00:46:23.790 than almost any group I know. And so we it was kind of fun to 591 00:46:23.790 --> 00:46:30.030 watch this. This change. And of course, it was almost poetic 592 00:46:30.030 --> 00:46:37.500 justice, that Miller got put in charge of NIF for a while. And 593 00:46:37.860 --> 00:46:40.860 that was really good for the program, because he came with a 594 00:46:40.860 --> 00:46:46.200 lot of credibility for the weapons program. And Georgia, if 595 00:46:46.200 --> 00:46:48.540 you've ever gone through the blue room with him, he switches 596 00:46:48.540 --> 00:46:52.590 on, when it gets to weapons, he just lights up. And he knows 597 00:46:52.590 --> 00:46:56.160 everything there is to know about the Livermore program and 598 00:46:56.160 --> 00:46:59.340 the tests and everything. And he was the right guy at the right 599 00:46:59.340 --> 00:47:06.330 time. And I attribute a lot of success of finishing Neff to not 600 00:47:06.360 --> 00:47:10.440 having to stand in there. So anyway, I don't know what else 601 00:47:10.470 --> 00:47:17.970 you want me to say. But that's just flavored by my extreme 602 00:47:18.090 --> 00:47:22.650 personality that says what I think. Great. 603 00:47:22.680 --> 00:47:25.590 Well, thank you for that. And actually, there's a I'll say 604 00:47:25.590 --> 00:47:28.470 that, in my mind, at least my mind works in strange ways. 605 00:47:28.470 --> 00:47:32.490 There's no sort of a segue into the petawatt lasers topic of 606 00:47:32.490 --> 00:47:33.360 this period. 607 00:47:33.390 --> 00:47:35.190 Can I Can I make one comment? No. 608 00:47:37.170 --> 00:47:40.650 Not right now. I will give I will yield the floor to the 609 00:47:40.650 --> 00:47:49.920 gentleman shortly. The petawatt lasers. I would say studies from 610 00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:54.240 my limited perspective, came in kind of as a fast ignition 611 00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:59.760 frenzy or the ICF frenzy. And yet I think petawatt lasers, in 612 00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:03.330 my humble opinions don't have overly intense lasers in the 613 00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:06.900 secondary sources they can generate can be very useful for 614 00:48:06.930 --> 00:48:12.480 Stockpile Stewardship. And we need to wind this session up to 615 00:48:12.480 --> 00:48:17.970 Mike Mike at the end. So we're going to do an ultra fast review 616 00:48:17.970 --> 00:48:22.920 of petawatt lasers a memory cycle. After I yield the floor 617 00:48:22.920 --> 00:48:23.310 to Dave. 618 00:48:23.340 --> 00:48:26.850 Bob mentioned the difficulties with the appropriations 619 00:48:26.850 --> 00:48:30.480 committee and it was a very pregnant moment. And Bob may 620 00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:33.390 have been one that alerted me to it that it was coming up and 621 00:48:33.390 --> 00:48:36.810 they were going to mark and the minute you was opposed. And so I 622 00:48:36.810 --> 00:48:40.800 go into Vic's office. This is tell you how Vic operated and 623 00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:43.590 told him this. And he said just a minute he punched in a bunch 624 00:48:43.590 --> 00:48:48.420 of numbers. And we talked to Pete Domenici instantly, and 625 00:48:48.420 --> 00:48:50.490 bixolon. Stockwell 626 00:48:50.490 --> 00:48:52.680 surgeon, Harold Agata. 627 00:48:53.940 --> 00:48:56.250 But it was it was a very critical moment. And I don't 628 00:48:56.250 --> 00:49:00.990 think people realize how important Domenici was occasions 629 00:49:00.990 --> 00:49:03.000 when he favored net that he didn't have to. 630 00:49:05.490 --> 00:49:07.980 For those of us that Sunday at the time, we always you know, 631 00:49:08.250 --> 00:49:12.030 you know we all here is obviously in the city. The other 632 00:49:12.120 --> 00:49:20.730 tagline was, is the best Senator California has. Yeah, so 633 00:49:20.730 --> 00:49:24.780 Mike Perry. I hope you're on I see that you're listed as a 634 00:49:24.780 --> 00:49:28.380 participant and you can you do do a quick intro. I think we 635 00:49:28.620 --> 00:49:32.100 can't start to peddle that subject without you. You're not 636 00:49:32.100 --> 00:49:32.490 there. 637 00:49:33.570 --> 00:49:36.660 Alright, I'm here. I'm here. Can you hear me? Yeah, hear me? 638 00:49:37.590 --> 00:49:41.730 Yeah. All right, actually works. I really enjoyed the 639 00:49:41.790 --> 00:49:45.780 reminiscence from Dave Crandall and Vic Reese, and Bob was, you 640 00:49:45.780 --> 00:49:48.840 know, really brings me back to many, many years. It was great 641 00:49:48.840 --> 00:49:54.240 to great to hear that. All right, so petawatt Alright, so 642 00:49:54.240 --> 00:50:00.240 very quickly. You know, we had decided to do my thing. Just 643 00:50:00.240 --> 00:50:05.340 work at Livermore. He had no idea what we were doing at the 644 00:50:05.340 --> 00:50:08.130 time. But Mike thought, you know, hey, this is a new area, 645 00:50:08.430 --> 00:50:12.150 it's gonna be something cool to get into, you know, let's go for 646 00:50:12.150 --> 00:50:19.080 it. So we started up doing really small stuff. And so then 647 00:50:19.290 --> 00:50:22.860 her phone application came along, we had already started 648 00:50:22.860 --> 00:50:27.270 doing some work that was related to that. So, you know, we had 649 00:50:27.270 --> 00:50:32.730 this, we had this crazy idea to do it, make a petawatt laser on 650 00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:37.110 on a beam line of Nova. And, of course, Mike was very, very 651 00:50:37.110 --> 00:50:42.570 supportive. And I remember standing up getting ldrd, making 652 00:50:42.570 --> 00:50:45.720 an ldrd presentation to the director's office and there was 653 00:50:45.720 --> 00:50:50.040 a couple Aedes and in the, in the audience, one of those 654 00:50:50.040 --> 00:50:53.670 ideas, I will not use any names, one of those ideas actually 655 00:50:53.670 --> 00:50:57.420 stood up after the presentation. And he said, This is the 656 00:50:57.420 --> 00:51:02.580 stupidest thing I've ever heard, this will not ever work. We 657 00:51:02.580 --> 00:51:06.630 should not waste our money on this. So I think it was, I think 658 00:51:06.630 --> 00:51:10.470 it was knuckles stood up and said, Well, I think this is a 659 00:51:10.470 --> 00:51:13.050 great thing. And we should go for it. It's innovative, we got 660 00:51:13.050 --> 00:51:18.090 to get back to our innovative roots. So we got funded, you 661 00:51:18.090 --> 00:51:20.430 know, we started developing grading started developing the 662 00:51:20.430 --> 00:51:25.050 core technology to do it. And I do want to share a couple other 663 00:51:25.050 --> 00:51:29.610 things. But one thing on this ad so about three years after the 664 00:51:29.610 --> 00:51:32.820 petawatt succeeded, or maybe two years after petawatt, succeeded. 665 00:51:33.870 --> 00:51:40.950 That same Associate Director stood up at another ldrd meeting 666 00:51:40.950 --> 00:51:44.340 for his director at the time, saying, you know, these short 667 00:51:44.340 --> 00:51:48.750 pulse lasers are critical to the future of the laboratory. And 668 00:51:48.750 --> 00:51:52.860 science as a whole. The fact that we have been pioneering 669 00:51:52.860 --> 00:51:57.450 this area is a big benefit to us. And we're fools not lose 670 00:51:57.450 --> 00:52:01.170 this, this type of leadership. I've been supportive of it the 671 00:52:01.170 --> 00:52:05.070 whole time. And and that's why we're gonna build our own 672 00:52:05.070 --> 00:52:10.770 consulting. beginning of my career, some of you are 673 00:52:10.770 --> 00:52:15.030 laughing. That means you guys know who I'm talking about. My 674 00:52:15.150 --> 00:52:15.660 signal? 675 00:52:16.980 --> 00:52:22.740 I don't know what was the in remain anonymous. Yeah, so my 676 00:52:25.560 --> 00:52:30.840 opinion. Yeah. So it very interesting time. And I 677 00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:32.970 mentioned that knowing maybe some of you there's always 678 00:52:32.970 --> 00:52:35.640 struggled right big project, we said this earlier, big projects, 679 00:52:36.120 --> 00:52:39.150 have struggled ratings were clearly one of the call the 680 00:52:39.150 --> 00:52:43.500 miracles of the Nova petawatt. Any others that you want to 681 00:52:43.740 --> 00:52:46.830 anybody want us to toss up there because I'm a tech guy. Well, I 682 00:52:47.070 --> 00:52:47.940 like to technology. 683 00:52:51.030 --> 00:52:55.860 The way coated the big mirror for the petawatt. And it was a 684 00:52:55.860 --> 00:53:00.150 great success at the time. And that was a tricky mirror cope 685 00:53:00.150 --> 00:53:04.380 given its size. And of course, people want to do it here, 686 00:53:04.380 --> 00:53:08.280 especially as you're running through. And why Campbell was 687 00:53:08.280 --> 00:53:11.160 out saying this is the greatest thing. since sliced bread. He 688 00:53:11.160 --> 00:53:14.130 wanted to build them all over the country. I went to see Jimmy 689 00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:18.180 Dini, Wilson's mob, I can't help you with Mike's campaign of a 690 00:53:18.180 --> 00:53:21.690 petawatt in every pot. But I couldn't help him in the back 691 00:53:21.690 --> 00:53:26.880 lighter. And I remember if Beckner when I talked about. He 692 00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:32.070 said, that's a mighty expensive back lighter. And I said, you 693 00:53:32.070 --> 00:53:37.770 know, why four beams? And why did you name it omega e, PMS is 694 00:53:37.770 --> 00:53:41.940 no new names. Because Congress doesn't like new starts. So for 695 00:53:41.940 --> 00:53:45.270 God's sake, anything we know will be called something omega, 696 00:53:45.600 --> 00:53:49.170 am I so this is just beamline improvements. Awaiting 697 00:53:49.170 --> 00:53:51.660 improvements. I said, we're going to go for new big beams. 698 00:53:54.240 --> 00:53:57.150 And that's how, you know these things have a life of their own. 699 00:53:57.360 --> 00:54:02.730 But it's written enormous difference. And my parents right 700 00:54:02.730 --> 00:54:07.140 on the same people that said, this is ridiculous of the first 701 00:54:07.140 --> 00:54:11.490 to say we always plan to do this. It's funny. 702 00:54:13.620 --> 00:54:16.050 Right? Well, one thing I did want to share with this with 703 00:54:16.050 --> 00:54:19.740 this group, just because they might just with this group, just 704 00:54:19.740 --> 00:54:23.970 because they might not be fully aware. The whole development of 705 00:54:23.970 --> 00:54:27.810 the petawatt thing. Obviously, everyone's aware of Eli all the 706 00:54:27.810 --> 00:54:33.810 efforts in Europe, but what you guys may not be aware of is the 707 00:54:33.810 --> 00:54:38.640 fact that we we in order to make the petawatt succeed, we had to 708 00:54:38.640 --> 00:54:44.040 do sort of fundamental research and short pulse laser damage. So 709 00:54:44.040 --> 00:54:47.430 this is the damage threshold and materials as you went down to 710 00:54:47.430 --> 00:54:51.900 vary to increasingly shorter pulses. And of course, many of 711 00:54:51.900 --> 00:54:54.570 you will recognize that we actually discovered something 712 00:54:54.570 --> 00:54:59.970 there, which is that there was a non thermal damage back in 713 00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:03.870 assume that took over. And in fact, you know, the concept of 714 00:55:03.870 --> 00:55:07.800 heat didn't even exist when you were below 10 pico seconds, for 715 00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:10.500 the simple reason that you were below the electron phonon 716 00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:15.960 coupling time. So as a result of that, you know, the damage 717 00:55:15.960 --> 00:55:20.370 mechanisms and material removal was a completely different 718 00:55:20.370 --> 00:55:24.870 physical mechanism than anyone had ever known. So, we publish 719 00:55:24.870 --> 00:55:29.550 this everywhere we go review, it got reviewed by everybody. What 720 00:55:29.550 --> 00:55:35.250 you guys may not be aware of is then then many companies took 721 00:55:35.250 --> 00:55:41.820 that up, and really have made an enormous industry of it. First 722 00:55:41.820 --> 00:55:45.720 thing that Vic Reese will remember is, you know, we've 723 00:55:45.780 --> 00:55:50.100 we've proposed this to Vic Reese to help deal with the W 87. 724 00:55:50.100 --> 00:55:55.200 Lifetime extension program issue to go in and remanufacture some 725 00:55:55.200 --> 00:55:59.580 components. So Vic supported that. And that was the actual 726 00:55:59.580 --> 00:56:06.510 first use of this new physics mechanism and laser materials 727 00:56:06.510 --> 00:56:13.200 processing. Since that time, there are now over 280 Different 728 00:56:13.290 --> 00:56:16.290 laser companies, well, not just laser companies, but companies 729 00:56:16.290 --> 00:56:21.000 throughout the world that do this ultra short pulse laser 730 00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:26.670 machining. Last year, the industry was over $1.3 billion 731 00:56:27.960 --> 00:56:32.820 and is slated to grow worldwide to I think 4 billion this year. 732 00:56:33.270 --> 00:56:36.750 And more than 10 billion in laser machining, short pulse 733 00:56:36.750 --> 00:56:41.790 since a second laser machining by the end of the decade. And, 734 00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:47.040 and possibly more, and that is 100%. And anyone that that knows 735 00:56:47.040 --> 00:56:52.920 history will fully admit it. That is 100% due to the original 736 00:56:52.920 --> 00:56:56.400 development of the petawatt. You know, the fact that that Mike 737 00:56:56.400 --> 00:56:59.190 and was supportive of it, and then some of the discoveries 738 00:57:00.210 --> 00:57:05.160 that we made. And then Vic, being the first guy to actually 739 00:57:05.160 --> 00:57:10.260 try and use it for a four core weapons application. So I think 740 00:57:10.260 --> 00:57:13.440 that's a story that most folks on this, this call may not be 741 00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:17.490 aware of. But I think I think it's, you know, just as 742 00:57:17.490 --> 00:57:19.800 important well, not maybe not maybe not just as important as 743 00:57:19.800 --> 00:57:22.290 some of this stuff. But but very, very important. But I 744 00:57:22.290 --> 00:57:26.730 think that didn't come out in between. Yeah, 745 00:57:26.850 --> 00:57:30.270 so I was a graduate student when the petawatt project was going 746 00:57:30.270 --> 00:57:32.940 on I and all the buzz and a couple of our students they 747 00:57:32.940 --> 00:57:36.210 wanted to get in get in on that action at Livermore. I think a 748 00:57:36.210 --> 00:57:39.480 couple of them did when they graduated, one name, I think 749 00:57:39.690 --> 00:57:44.070 Donna Strickland ended up going to Livermore and and you know, 750 00:57:44.100 --> 00:57:46.590 in the hurt in the citation for the Nobel Prize, I think some of 751 00:57:46.590 --> 00:57:50.340 it was the laser matter interactions for it was 752 00:57:50.340 --> 00:57:55.080 specifically I think laser eye surgery, but also laser marking 753 00:57:55.080 --> 00:57:57.540 and all the things you can do with short pulse lasers that 754 00:57:57.750 --> 00:58:02.010 fundamentally are different than other laser interactions. So I'm 755 00:58:02.010 --> 00:58:05.100 gonna wrap up with one statement and kind of turn the mic over to 756 00:58:05.100 --> 00:58:09.750 Mike. But you know, one thing it strikes me early on, it hit me 757 00:58:10.740 --> 00:58:14.910 sessions this morning, that it was stated somewhere here that, 758 00:58:14.910 --> 00:58:18.000 you know, Livermore was building new lasers every few years, and 759 00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:21.360 then other people were as well. And that's where you get 760 00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:24.480 creative juices flowing. It reminds me in the Navy days, in 761 00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:26.970 the early days of Nuclear Propulsion Program, they were 762 00:58:26.970 --> 00:58:29.700 trying all sorts of stuff to find the best solutions, and 763 00:58:30.120 --> 00:58:33.240 they built one of these ships, and he said one of those, one of 764 00:58:33.240 --> 00:58:36.390 those reactor plants, etc. And then you get to a solution 765 00:58:36.420 --> 00:58:40.320 quicker. And you know, I think the petawatt laser, did a little 766 00:58:40.320 --> 00:58:44.220 bit of that, you know, the Nova paddle, and then we're here in 767 00:58:44.220 --> 00:58:49.170 Rochester, GA, Rutherford, of course, etc. But I'm interested 768 00:58:49.170 --> 00:58:54.000 in, you know, I love history. Mike loves history. I think I 769 00:58:54.000 --> 00:58:57.510 liked the future better, and particularly if you can control 770 00:58:57.510 --> 00:59:01.800 it, and maybe define it. So I'm gonna turn the mic over to Mike. 771 00:59:01.890 --> 00:59:06.360 And then other people can jump in on him. And I'll say the 772 00:59:06.360 --> 00:59:08.880 general subject or where do we, you know, where do we go from 773 00:59:08.880 --> 00:59:11.790 here? I know this is not the last session. Someone's going to 774 00:59:13.200 --> 00:59:15.720 tell Valarie he's onto you need to be on deck for the next 775 00:59:15.720 --> 00:59:24.750 session here. But you know, you know, how do I say this? How do 776 00:59:24.750 --> 00:59:29.910 we what do we learned through the periods we've covered so far 777 00:59:30.120 --> 00:59:33.870 to go forward in petawatt laser that's my passion but I would 778 00:59:33.870 --> 00:59:40.710 say even generally, fusion or HD lasers to keep the ball moving, 779 00:59:40.800 --> 00:59:42.540 and I'm gonna turn it over to Mike and like I said, others 780 00:59:42.570 --> 00:59:45.390 raise their hands and jump in as 781 00:59:47.100 --> 00:59:50.760 appropriate. Just like a salute. Let me tell you about my first 782 00:59:50.760 --> 00:59:54.390 time I met the grease, so they could just become the Assistant 783 00:59:54.390 --> 00:59:57.720 Secretary for Defense Program. And he was doing a business 784 00:59:57.750 --> 01:00:04.950 visit deliver more Any other talk, talks, dressed in his. And 785 01:00:04.950 --> 01:00:07.950 so I went in was in the central cafeteria. So I went to the 786 01:00:07.950 --> 01:00:13.170 talk. And he brought his wife out Maryland. And you're not 787 01:00:13.170 --> 01:00:16.290 done. I walked over and said, Are you going to say no, they 788 01:00:16.290 --> 01:00:20.250 said once, no, but most of them it wasn't on his agenda, visit 789 01:00:20.250 --> 01:00:24.090 the laser program. So George Miller standing, you know, I 790 01:00:24.090 --> 01:00:26.940 have a full day of what's in my hand, the full day said, we're 791 01:00:26.940 --> 01:00:30.810 doing what y'all we have the biggest laser in the world 792 01:00:31.080 --> 01:00:36.660 that's doing weapons, you know, doing all this work. And so, so 793 01:00:36.690 --> 01:00:41.280 I said that you're on east coast time, your agenda starts at 830. 794 01:00:41.970 --> 01:00:43.860 Why don't you come they'll meet you at six o'clock in the lab. 795 01:00:43.860 --> 01:00:47.610 We'll give you a tour of Nova. And so he asked his wife, 796 01:00:47.610 --> 01:00:51.480 Maryland, what should we do, and she said, Is this laser bigger 797 01:00:51.480 --> 01:00:56.310 than what I checked out in the grocery store? Bigger than a 798 01:00:56.310 --> 01:01:01.020 football field. So they came, and I was six, I met him at the 799 01:01:01.020 --> 01:01:03.300 lab, six o'clock in the tour and open toed all the work, we're 800 01:01:03.300 --> 01:01:06.330 doing a note. And then when Vic was leaving, he doesn't 801 01:01:06.330 --> 01:01:09.240 remember. So I remember very clearly, he's walking outside 802 01:01:09.510 --> 01:01:12.240 the know the building. And right above the entrance, paint was 803 01:01:12.240 --> 01:01:16.260 chipping off of the wall. And he goes to the you're trying to 804 01:01:16.260 --> 01:01:20.280 sell me a new laser, you can't even keep the building clean. He 805 01:01:20.280 --> 01:01:24.750 goes back and I call facilities, please come and take a picture 806 01:01:24.840 --> 01:01:28.170 painted and take another picture. And they did that. And 807 01:01:28.170 --> 01:01:30.600 I sent it to Dec and said I always pay attention to your 808 01:01:30.600 --> 01:01:39.270 advice. Beginning with six. Now the petawatt was actually came 809 01:01:39.270 --> 01:01:44.250 out of the X ray laser program, as much as because we had done X 810 01:01:44.250 --> 01:01:47.400 ray laser. And Charlie Rose if people know Charlie Rose, 811 01:01:47.820 --> 01:01:52.260 Charlie Rose says he calls me up and says Livermore lives. I 812 01:01:52.260 --> 01:01:55.980 don't believe you. So I said I'll come out and give a talk at 813 01:01:55.980 --> 01:02:01.110 the University of Illinois and in Chicago. So I came out to 814 01:02:01.110 --> 01:02:04.560 give a talk and it's clear of work. And then he took me down 815 01:02:04.560 --> 01:02:07.140 to his laboratory at a small karaf laser. And he was trying 816 01:02:07.140 --> 01:02:10.980 to do X ray lasers by multi photon ionization now coming out 817 01:02:10.980 --> 01:02:15.330 Acacia electron. And here, we had a laser on a table like 818 01:02:15.330 --> 01:02:20.070 this. And it was a terawatt. I thought so I was short pulse 819 01:02:20.070 --> 01:02:23.670 lasers. So this is interesting. So I go back to, you know, on 820 01:02:23.670 --> 01:02:26.820 the plane, we have a diode laser we're using for street camera 821 01:02:26.820 --> 01:02:30.420 calibration. It's a millage only thing a second, we do physics 822 01:02:30.420 --> 01:02:34.410 with it. So no one was interested at the lab. I asked 823 01:02:34.410 --> 01:02:37.230 everybody who was interested in Stan Preussen, who was Mike 824 01:02:37.230 --> 01:02:39.900 Perry, his thesis advisor says I have this really good student 825 01:02:39.900 --> 01:02:45.180 and he needs a thesis project. So you know, can you come talk 826 01:02:45.180 --> 01:02:48.390 to us? Come on down. Mike was in the nuclear engineering 827 01:02:48.390 --> 01:02:53.790 department to not know nothing about lasers. And I told him, 828 01:02:53.790 --> 01:02:56.370 there were two things to get involved in recombination lasers 829 01:02:56.400 --> 01:02:59.610 for X ray lasers, or the short pulse lasers, this is a really 830 01:02:59.610 --> 01:03:03.240 new field, we ought to get involved in this. And we have we 831 01:03:03.240 --> 01:03:07.080 have a fire laser, we're gonna start. Why don't you do that? So 832 01:03:07.080 --> 01:03:10.470 he comes back and says I want to just work pulsed lasers. And we 833 01:03:10.470 --> 01:03:12.900 had to figure out how we got his thesis because it was being paid 834 01:03:12.900 --> 01:03:16.470 by dealies nuclear energy. This is a deal you fellowship in 835 01:03:16.470 --> 01:03:21.960 nuclear energy. Isotope separation using a dye laser, 836 01:03:21.960 --> 01:03:25.140 because was tunable, we tuned to atomic resonances and see if he 837 01:03:25.140 --> 01:03:27.480 had enhancement in the organization. So to go back, 838 01:03:27.480 --> 01:03:30.570 there's a bunch of papers with Mike Perry, myself, Neil, Nino 839 01:03:30.570 --> 01:03:35.730 Landon, doing that sort of stuff. So at the same time, 840 01:03:35.730 --> 01:03:40.350 right around that time, we were trying to figure out, Is there a 841 01:03:40.350 --> 01:03:44.430 non thermal way of getting fusion, and Don had just come up 842 01:03:44.430 --> 01:03:48.120 with an duart, CPA. And I thought, you know, if we get the 843 01:03:48.120 --> 01:03:51.750 very high intensities, we get the ions oscillating at energies 844 01:03:52.020 --> 01:03:55.140 with a cross section maximizes maybe we could do a non thermal 845 01:03:55.170 --> 01:03:58.350 fusion process. So Perry and I started thinking about where 846 01:03:58.350 --> 01:04:01.260 could we do this? And so it was myself, Max. Hey, back, John 847 01:04:01.260 --> 01:04:06.510 Woodworth. And then we'll do that a lot. That's how we got to 848 01:04:06.510 --> 01:04:10.620 check this physics out. So Planck, then, after Mike 849 01:04:10.620 --> 01:04:13.470 finished his thesis, I hired him to do the experiments problem 850 01:04:13.470 --> 01:04:15.390 because the laser people weren't interested in short pulse 851 01:04:15.390 --> 01:04:19.500 lasers. So I hired him to the experiments program. And then we 852 01:04:19.500 --> 01:04:22.200 sold the ldrd. No one was interested, you weren't 853 01:04:22.200 --> 01:04:24.000 interested. No one was interested in federal walks. I 854 01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:26.430 went to you and asked you for money. You said, I already give 855 01:04:26.430 --> 01:04:27.000 you enough money. 856 01:04:29.280 --> 01:04:34.140 So we we've made a ldrd ad at the time, Jim Davis was very 857 01:04:34.140 --> 01:04:38.730 supportive. And Mike had to invent dialectic gradings the 858 01:04:38.730 --> 01:04:42.120 demonstration called you know, the short post machining, we 859 01:04:42.120 --> 01:04:45.720 came out from that. And the compression chamber Mike did not 860 01:04:45.720 --> 01:04:48.450 say But Mike is a great scrounger. And the compression 861 01:04:48.450 --> 01:04:53.700 chamber was that use of nuclear bomb test is a giant cylindrical 862 01:04:53.700 --> 01:04:56.670 chamber without going to detail the bombs at one end diagnostic 863 01:04:56.670 --> 01:05:01.290 the other and we stopped testing so There were some spares lying 864 01:05:01.290 --> 01:05:06.090 around in Paragon. And so this compression chamber NIF at NOVA 865 01:05:06.120 --> 01:05:09.180 was actually remnants of the nuclear weapons program. The 866 01:05:09.180 --> 01:05:13.770 Japanese came over to copy it. And I told him he drew a 867 01:05:13.770 --> 01:05:17.850 picture. They commented Exactly. And I told them they have to do 868 01:05:17.850 --> 01:05:20.310 tonight data talk, you know, you know where that came from? You 869 01:05:20.310 --> 01:05:27.060 just copied a nuclear weapons test. But then, but then, when 870 01:05:27.450 --> 01:05:29.490 that really if you look at it that really started the high 871 01:05:29.490 --> 01:05:33.390 school physics program. No, it really started the field. And 872 01:05:33.390 --> 01:05:37.110 then things like fast ignition came down to that. Proton paths 873 01:05:37.110 --> 01:05:39.870 ignition. Marcus Ross was a postdoc there. And he's still 874 01:05:39.870 --> 01:05:43.590 carrying that legacy, you know, 30 years later. But it was a 875 01:05:43.590 --> 01:05:46.200 great success. And it really started the whole field. And you 876 01:05:46.200 --> 01:05:50.340 know, I hired Donna to come out. And Todd did Meyer, we hired 877 01:05:50.340 --> 01:05:52.860 everyone. Mike, of course, trying to get everyone the world 878 01:05:52.890 --> 01:05:55.500 doing short pulse lasers. And it was a wonderful time for the 879 01:05:55.500 --> 01:05:59.100 lab. And Amazon. When we were shutting down Nova, I tried to 880 01:05:59.100 --> 01:06:02.970 get people to want to keep know that that one would be mind 881 01:06:03.000 --> 01:06:05.400 operable. But it was still we only had it for about two or 882 01:06:05.400 --> 01:06:07.860 three years. And no one was interested in keeping it going. 883 01:06:08.790 --> 01:06:12.360 That's why it got shut down. But it was, it really was wonderful 884 01:06:12.360 --> 01:06:15.240 time. I mean, you look at Eli with all this stuff on again, 885 01:06:15.240 --> 01:06:18.870 Rochester. I used to go to our laser people and said, this is 886 01:06:18.870 --> 01:06:24.540 true story. How come Rochester invents everything invented SSD 887 01:06:24.570 --> 01:06:27.570 type one, type two, frequency conversion, CPA, how come we 888 01:06:27.570 --> 01:06:30.690 don't invent anything, but we engineer it better? We engineer 889 01:06:30.690 --> 01:06:33.960 it of scale and said better. We can engineer it at scale. And 890 01:06:33.960 --> 01:06:37.080 that's what that's what they talked about a lot less. So 891 01:06:37.440 --> 01:06:38.850 that's a restore of 892 01:06:39.270 --> 01:06:42.870 didn't give you money. But I remember how excited you were 893 01:06:42.870 --> 01:06:48.180 about Federline. You took a few things turn him on, you get you 894 01:06:48.180 --> 01:06:48.600 got it. 895 01:06:48.720 --> 01:06:52.050 And actually one of the one of the few graphs that I liked the 896 01:06:52.050 --> 01:06:56.730 most is that I called up Charlie towns. When when we got the 897 01:06:56.730 --> 01:06:59.520 federal watch said, Charlie, you have to come over and say we've 898 01:06:59.520 --> 01:07:03.840 made a laser 10 to the 15 watts. And he said, No, you can't be 899 01:07:03.840 --> 01:07:05.850 trillion did something like that? I said, Yes, I thought 900 01:07:05.850 --> 01:07:09.480 Nova was the biggest laser. And that's only 100 terawatts. So he 901 01:07:09.480 --> 01:07:14.460 came over and we took a picture of him in front of the mic in 902 01:07:14.460 --> 01:07:15.780 front of the compression chamber. 903 01:07:16.650 --> 01:07:19.740 So I mentioned to say this is the outset, there's a great 904 01:07:19.740 --> 01:07:25.110 talk, and Mike gave it Livermore. You can get online I 905 01:07:25.110 --> 01:07:28.260 have a copy of it here. But I could scroll through it. It was 906 01:07:28.260 --> 01:07:33.000 gonna be distracting pictures in there. For sure. Like one of the 907 01:07:33.000 --> 01:07:35.520 points that came up in my mind that if you wouldn't mind 908 01:07:35.520 --> 01:07:38.460 commenting on it, really, it seemed like it came up over and 909 01:07:38.460 --> 01:07:41.970 over again, this kind of cooperation and competition that 910 01:07:41.970 --> 01:07:44.040 drives the field. I call it coopetition. 911 01:07:45.150 --> 01:07:50.250 In the petawatt, what do you see that at play? And you see the 912 01:07:50.280 --> 01:07:50.850 play? Now? I 913 01:07:50.850 --> 01:07:53.760 think the answer is yes. But actually, one of the reasons 914 01:07:53.790 --> 01:07:58.920 Yes. And actually one of the reasons that Noah became trying 915 01:07:58.920 --> 01:08:01.920 to push NIF fast because omega came up and Omega was a better 916 01:08:01.920 --> 01:08:05.310 laser than No, no, it was modern. It had 60 beams. It was 917 01:08:05.310 --> 01:08:08.190 a better laser. And so I was fearful that Livermore would 918 01:08:08.220 --> 01:08:12.570 lose its preeminence if only had Nova and Rochester had omega. So 919 01:08:12.570 --> 01:08:16.500 one of the motivations for moving ahead with NIF was 920 01:08:16.500 --> 01:08:20.880 because Livermore had the position of losing preeminence 921 01:08:20.880 --> 01:08:23.850 in the field. So yes, but in cooperation, I mean, when 922 01:08:23.850 --> 01:08:28.170 Melissa McGrath talked about this, when we wrote the Nova 923 01:08:28.170 --> 01:08:31.200 tech home contract, I asked elaborate rules almost to play 924 01:08:31.200 --> 01:08:33.780 three key roles. So I wasn't going to be delivering we're 925 01:08:33.780 --> 01:08:36.090 doing all the work. So they were given responsibility for 926 01:08:36.090 --> 01:08:39.930 symmetry and LPI. The two hardest problems. Exactly. They 927 01:08:39.930 --> 01:08:42.300 came a great twist, and it would be able to convince other 928 01:08:42.300 --> 01:08:46.980 people. So the cooperation was great. And then when we did SSD 929 01:08:46.980 --> 01:08:49.860 on Nova Rochester was key in that I mean, you know, because 930 01:08:50.010 --> 01:08:54.660 Nova was the last laser to have SSD on it. And I called up Bob 931 01:08:54.660 --> 01:08:58.290 and said, Look, we got to put this on. Can you help us right 932 01:08:58.290 --> 01:09:01.770 away Rochester health. Same thing with faceplates when was 933 01:09:01.770 --> 01:09:04.530 beamlet was done at Sandia when they were doing the first maglev 934 01:09:04.530 --> 01:09:07.920 experiments. The amount of American was just mixing those 935 01:09:07.920 --> 01:09:10.290 that they had nothing on it. They had no case by something. 936 01:09:10.770 --> 01:09:14.040 And so in the beam, I so I haven't seen this analogy since 937 01:09:14.040 --> 01:09:18.900 November. And I called up Bob and said, Could you send 938 01:09:18.900 --> 01:09:23.070 faceplates to Rochester? I mean, so Sandia and right away San le 939 01:09:23.070 --> 01:09:27.090 sent faceplates to it made a big difference in understanding the 940 01:09:27.090 --> 01:09:32.610 experiments on maglev. So the cooperation it's competition is 941 01:09:32.610 --> 01:09:36.510 great but you couldn't win. And competition is good, because it 942 01:09:36.510 --> 01:09:39.150 makes you better. But you know, in the end, it's you got to take 943 01:09:39.150 --> 01:09:42.240 the best ideas, you know, and be willing to share them 944 01:09:43.350 --> 01:09:46.290 wasn't right away. We had to recode it before we sent it out. 945 01:09:50.160 --> 01:09:53.010 I still remember talking to Adam Southdale. So this is you showed 946 01:09:53.010 --> 01:09:55.590 me beer so this I haven't noticed I haven't seen that 947 01:09:55.590 --> 01:10:01.470 being this lousiest since at If you're if you're extra fresh on 948 01:10:01.470 --> 01:10:04.500 and I said this is a fart, this is the inner refill picture of 949 01:10:04.500 --> 01:10:08.580 the laser beam at NOVA Kravitz actually intended to eat a to 950 01:10:08.580 --> 01:10:14.310 show how much structure there wasn't necessary. The other part 951 01:10:14.310 --> 01:10:20.580 about cooperation. So once I wanted to get the other fusion 952 01:10:20.580 --> 01:10:25.770 laboratories interested in ICS, or an HTTP, and I got to know 953 01:10:25.830 --> 01:10:28.500 Sarge over there, this was ours Patrasche off because you were 954 01:10:28.500 --> 01:10:31.410 doing some editing for nature's I can't remember you were doing 955 01:10:31.410 --> 01:10:34.860 something you know that you and I started to talk about Ryan and 956 01:10:34.860 --> 01:10:37.320 Raleigh doing publishing some Raleigh Taylor experiments. 957 01:10:41.520 --> 01:10:44.520 Okay, I can't remember those. But, but so I want to round so I 958 01:10:44.520 --> 01:10:47.460 just saw I called up GA and they were already involved in 959 01:10:47.460 --> 01:10:54.600 targets. And went to Princeton. Rob Goldstein, was the director 960 01:10:54.600 --> 01:10:57.600 to your plasma physics lab, not a tokamak lab, you should 961 01:10:57.600 --> 01:11:00.960 getting interested in this. No interest. went to MIT, Ron 962 01:11:00.960 --> 01:11:05.280 Parker was running the plasma effort there. And Ron said, 963 01:11:05.850 --> 01:11:07.650 sounds good, you're gonna have to try. So 964 01:11:10.710 --> 01:11:13.020 that's how that started. That's alright. And he's been had 965 01:11:15.090 --> 01:11:15.810 ever been able to 966 01:11:20.130 --> 01:11:24.960 talk about stewardship. So you met with Bob. So when Nick was 967 01:11:24.960 --> 01:11:29.010 first put into the President's budget, the House did not give 968 01:11:29.010 --> 01:11:33.300 the money for it. And we and we have a floor amendment by a guy 969 01:11:33.300 --> 01:11:36.900 named Big Fat Fazio and Republicans my brother's name I 970 01:11:36.900 --> 01:11:38.880 forgot. And they put on as a floor amendment that's just got 971 01:11:38.880 --> 01:11:45.480 started. And on top of that, what victims say is that if I 972 01:11:45.480 --> 01:11:50.040 were gonna, I hired a lobbyist. And I couldn't do that. So I had 973 01:11:50.040 --> 01:11:53.580 GA hire the lobbyist. And we paid GA and I went to to 974 01:11:53.580 --> 01:11:56.580 Kilkenny said send them a million dollars because they can 975 01:11:56.580 --> 01:11:59.310 only pay it out of state. So that's how GA got started 976 01:11:59.310 --> 01:12:04.200 funding a little more funding Gi. But the guy's name was Pat 977 01:12:04.200 --> 01:12:10.260 folden. And had was wonderful. And he got we got every member 978 01:12:10.260 --> 01:12:13.920 of California 54 Members of Congress to sign a letter to 979 01:12:13.920 --> 01:12:17.910 hazelbury for everyone, Republicans and Democrats, both 980 01:12:17.910 --> 01:12:21.060 senators. That was it's never been done since it was never 981 01:12:21.060 --> 01:12:24.750 done before. It's harder than anything. Right? Imagine that. 982 01:12:24.750 --> 01:12:28.080 But everyone signed up from the marijuana growers up north to 983 01:12:28.410 --> 01:12:30.930 the crazies in the Central Valley to the inner city of LA 984 01:12:30.930 --> 01:12:35.880 to downtown San Diego, everyone signed it. So the was in that 985 01:12:35.880 --> 01:12:38.580 was a major, major part of having enough guts on the face 986 01:12:38.580 --> 01:12:38.850 right 987 01:12:38.850 --> 01:12:42.540 at the right time, because it was NIF CDR was done like in 988 01:12:42.540 --> 01:12:48.450 April of 1984. And by June we had Katie, one had the support 989 01:12:48.600 --> 01:12:51.960 in the in the 96 month funding cycle, which is the next funding 990 01:12:51.960 --> 01:12:56.070 cycle going through going through Congress. 991 01:12:58.770 --> 01:13:02.070 So I mean, lots of good stories. And you know, Mike is now 992 01:13:02.100 --> 01:13:05.790 they've been very successful down at the General Atomics. So 993 01:13:05.790 --> 01:13:09.210 when I went down there, I hired Mike. And he's been very 994 01:13:09.210 --> 01:13:11.280 successful with the laser program. And I'd say there's and 995 01:13:11.280 --> 01:13:13.680 there's lots of cooperation, I think potential collaboration 996 01:13:13.680 --> 01:13:17.910 between GA and Rochester and getting average power lasers 997 01:13:17.910 --> 01:13:20.010 into the game. So 998 01:13:21.720 --> 01:13:24.870 we got five minutes before I pass the baton to Valarie any 999 01:13:24.870 --> 01:13:29.190 last last words, maybe we might want to take a little bit of a 1000 01:13:29.190 --> 01:13:33.300 bio break flush break up this count the schedule goes straight 1001 01:13:33.300 --> 01:13:45.930 through but we've got five minutes. So he's bringing up I 1002 01:13:45.930 --> 01:13:50.760 listed I keydown fluorophosphate Laser glass, he mentioned that 1003 01:13:50.760 --> 01:13:53.880 it was low end too. And that has popped up recently on our radar. 1004 01:13:53.880 --> 01:13:58.830 So I got your or I mentioned how history repeats. I might repeat 1005 01:13:58.830 --> 01:14:01.890 itself. And there's an effort right now to look at. you 1006 01:14:01.890 --> 01:14:06.990 revisit laser glasses that have low end too, but also expand the 1007 01:14:06.990 --> 01:14:12.540 spectrum. Right. And we can see whether it's particularly for 1008 01:14:12.540 --> 01:14:19.110 direct driving, for ride as a question. You're behind that. 1009 01:14:19.260 --> 01:14:19.620 Greg, 1010 01:14:20.670 --> 01:14:23.730 how do you see this playing out in the future? Because it's 1011 01:14:24.600 --> 01:14:28.530 listening to the history of the IPM program. It's your posts and 1012 01:14:28.560 --> 01:14:35.040 personalities that push to begin with to going forward. How do 1013 01:14:35.040 --> 01:14:42.960 you see ideas program? The Big Mike Campbell 1014 01:14:45.150 --> 01:14:50.760 No, I mean, Bob, Bob was very important for you know, for NIF. 1015 01:14:50.820 --> 01:14:53.910 You know the support of New York and Bob was very important. I 1016 01:14:53.910 --> 01:14:56.490 mean, obviously it was a full time effort. On my part. The 1017 01:14:56.490 --> 01:15:01.050 crane will tell you I was hardly ever home. I went, I would go to 1018 01:15:01.050 --> 01:15:03.960 Washington two or three times a week on day trips, I'd come 1019 01:15:03.960 --> 01:15:07.170 back, I go take the gret, I come back in the afternoon, and, you 1020 01:15:07.170 --> 01:15:11.220 know, I'm ever going to France for it for a two hour meeting, 1021 01:15:11.310 --> 01:15:15.060 and was only there for two hours, to get them to agree to 1022 01:15:15.180 --> 01:15:18.990 do the glass development. So it's going to take personality, 1023 01:15:18.990 --> 01:15:23.040 it's gonna take, you know, the community working together. You 1024 01:15:23.040 --> 01:15:25.290 know, it's one of the reasons that, you know, Chris is here, 1025 01:15:25.320 --> 01:15:27.450 Chris has that type of personality, you know, to get 1026 01:15:27.450 --> 01:15:29.370 things done and just want to take that, but it is it's all 1027 01:15:29.370 --> 01:15:34.230 it's like. Decker Joe said, it's all about people. I think the 1028 01:15:34.230 --> 01:15:37.140 role of the program and stewardship is well established 1029 01:15:37.140 --> 01:15:42.000 now. You know, I think the developer energy activities, and 1030 01:15:42.000 --> 01:15:44.700 we all know how hard energy is going to be but getting the 1031 01:15:44.700 --> 01:15:47.700 average power getting into higher data rates is something 1032 01:15:47.700 --> 01:15:51.120 that is going to have to come. But ya know, it was it was a it 1033 01:15:51.120 --> 01:15:53.760 was an interesting, Vic was so critical to have someone in 1034 01:15:53.760 --> 01:15:58.170 dealey who was as good as Vic, and who would understand and 1035 01:15:58.200 --> 01:16:00.990 could get things on his, I'll say this over and over again. He 1036 01:16:01.020 --> 01:16:04.590 was my father, but I've never met anyone in the government as 1037 01:16:04.590 --> 01:16:07.890 good as Beck, who was a strategist and he knew how to he 1038 01:16:07.890 --> 01:16:11.430 knew the tactics required to execute the strategy out of 1039 01:16:11.430 --> 01:16:15.960 charm Hazel. intermittently, I mean, Pete Domenici, you know, 1040 01:16:15.990 --> 01:16:19.170 New Mexico. And you know, he chaired Energy and Water 1041 01:16:19.170 --> 01:16:23.370 Committee and the Senate Armed Services Committee, both to get 1042 01:16:23.370 --> 01:16:27.150 him to go along, was a deck was credit. I mean, just so many 1043 01:16:27.150 --> 01:16:31.800 different ways. And y'all and so my mother's praying that we find 1044 01:16:31.830 --> 01:16:35.490 another dick in the government, lighting candles, I guess. Okay, 1045 01:16:35.549 --> 01:16:36.719 I didn't candles. Yes. 1046 01:16:38.700 --> 01:16:41.040 All right, I think I'm gonna close this session. Two minutes.