WEBVTT

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So the next section
because, you know, it's

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basically Star Wars, which
you'll find out drawbacks a lot

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of investments in the
technology, especially under the

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diagnostics. The big major
facilities were coming online.

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And of course, there was a
British invasion and you know,

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falling in the Beatles was the
May started another one. So, so

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and this session will be chaired
by Dustin overdue Dustin,

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British

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there wasn't, there wasn't well,
I'm an American, but the throw

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is a no vote. So Scotland is
still formally part of Great

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Britain,

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Ireland and Great Britain.
Right. Yeah. So,

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you know, I, I think the Star
Wars program, as you point out

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is really major technology
driver. And really bigger than

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that it captured the imagination
of the world and drove a lot of

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technology. In the 1980s, across
the board, I know, I was aware

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of it at some of the earliest
science that I actually was

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aware of, I was, you know, five
to 10 years old at that point in

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living in a family that doing
Star Wars programs in our arm.

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And so for me, it was very
influential in getting me into

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this field and learning about
Livermore and learning about the

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program. Even Ella Lee had some
some pretty solid ties into that

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program, that Strategic Defense
Office stdio funded LLP in a few

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areas, as part of the sowers
program, and Bill Donaldson was

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one of the Knights at that time,
brought that to my attention.

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And, you know, if you really
scour the archives, you'll

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actually find a patent on
superconducting switches for

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post power that basically
resulted out of that work with

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stdio. You know, in fact, LLC
hosted a workshop on Star Wars

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and stdio, back in 1988. And
there was apparently a couple

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others that I couldn't dig out
of the archive. So So there's,

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there's some, there's some
connection to lled. But really,

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this period is not about LSD.
It's about Mike, and his

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contributions to the National
Program and the emergence of the

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large facilities that paved the
way for ignition, which then

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also brings in the British
invasion. So before we start it,

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go through and introduce the
panels panel and have you folks

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a little bit on yourself, I
think the panel members are

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really some legends in their own
right. And I don't know that

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everybody of the younger
generation knows who you are.

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And so maybe just for the first
part, tell us who you are and

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how you came to get involved
with Mike and that if you

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haven't already had that
opportunity. And so let's let's

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start with that. The panel
members, I guess they're up

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there. Okay. That's good. So,
Joe, do you want to kick that

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off? I know you've had a chance
to talk a little bit, but maybe

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give us a little bit of
background there. And maybe a

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story about when? When you Yeah,
when you met Mike or? Yeah.

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Yeah, sure. Can. Can I share my
screen? Yeah, give me one second

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how the engineer

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can share, but I can't do it
with okay.

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So I want to talk about the know
that epoch. Yeah. And I've

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actually got quite a few things
to say, Dustin. So how do you

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want to handle this? Let's do
introductions

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first, so we get all the
panelists introduced, and then

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I'll give you plenty of time. We
got a good hour and we're gonna

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go through okay, but

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let's, let's not share screen
now then. Okay. So, as I said, I

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met Mike in 1988. at the Ecole

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Polytechnique at the Ecole
Polytechnique in Panama. So I'm

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fixed actually is this too but
only recently and I he recruited

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me when he handed me through to
me to the Lawrence Livermore Lab

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with a clearance I had a UK
clearance and as probably that

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caused some

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consternation is quite famous.
We were clearance people because

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they went ahead with a Q
clearance before I was a eu US

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citizen I think and work for him
on Nova and I have a lot to say.

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Being that I have a lot to say
about that. Sure, thanks. So

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Melissa,

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is on line with us too. It looks
like do you want to take a

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chance? And yeah, there you are
great. Good to see you. And you

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want to unmute so we can hear
you and give us a chance to tell

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us about yourself a little bit.
still muted Melissa. Sorry. I

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muted Melissa. Yeah, hold on one
second, and either hold spacebar

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down or unmute.

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I can, we can hear you Alyssa.

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Great. Well, good. Good to be
here. Celebrating Mike, he

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certainly deserves a lot of
kudos for his contributions to

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the ICF program over the years.
So my history is in 1984, I

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joined the Los Alamos as a
secondary designer and

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underground test program, got
some experience, got experience

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designing underground test
experiments and for Nevada, and

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very much was steeped in the
culture of the weapons program,

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where it was very important.
Equally important to be able to

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send the data through
computation. In in the nuclear

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test program, there were very,
very strong collaborations

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between theoretical people like
myself, designers like myself,

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the people who were to building
the weapons, and also the

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computational scientists. One
disappointment I had in the in

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my time in the nuclear weapons
program was the lack of fidelity

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and a lot of the computational
tools. And so in my time I spent

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in the underground test program,
I really focused on beefing up

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the ability to calculate some of
the experiments we were working

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on. And as I transitioned into
the ICF program in 1987, I took

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those foundations with me the
importance of having a well

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rounded program focused on
design, experimentation and

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fabrication, as well as the
extreme importance and

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collaboration to move things
forward. And in particular,

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bringing into the ICF program,
very strong adherence to being

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able to step up the ability to
calculate what we could when it

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came to, in the case of Los
Alamos formed designs, it was a

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very hard time to be part of the
ICF program at Los Alamos,

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because we were very much still
suffering from the demise of the

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co2 laser de or reputation, or
focused on KERS lasers at the

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time, and our program was
stumbling along, underfunded.

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And stumbling, I guess, is
probably the nicest way to put

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it. So as a young designer in
ICF programs, in the late 80s, I

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saw that there was a void in
leadership. And I was happy to

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see strong leaders like Steve
younger come along, and try to

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push the program forward. But
unfortunately, it was not in a

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collaborative way, which I would
have chosen had I been leading

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initially. Because Steve was
very much a my way or the

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highway kind of guy at that
point in his career. And so it

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was, it was exciting. But it was
also you could see stumbling

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blocks ahead of the Los Alamos
collaboration. When I first met

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Mike, he was actually working
more on the laser side than on

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the target side of things. And
it was through interactions with

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Steve younger that I came to
understand Mike's ways, some of

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which were pleasing to some of
us at Los Alamos and some which

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were frustrated. Others that
love, shall I say, so, but as a

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as a young person in the ICF
program, it was incredible to

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learn about not just the physics
of what was going on in ICF, and

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the fantastic diagnostics that
Joe and his people were pulling

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out, pulling off at NOVA, but
also the political side from

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both Mike and what it was
required to be successful in

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selling the next generation
facility.

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That's great. Thank you. And

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we'll have some time to come
back and tell some other

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stories. Chris, Christina, you
want to start out and introduce

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yourself? Hello and welcome.

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Yeah, Dustin, thank you. Can you
hear me? Okay? That was great.

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All right, great. Awesome. Well,
hey, it's wonderful to see you

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all. And Mike, it's great to see
you. And congratulations on your

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retirement. We'll talk more. But
yeah, I mean, and I've just the

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watchwords of your work have
been, always follow the lead of

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the best science and be
collaborative. That's been

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tremendously important for the
program. So thank you for that

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and your leadership. We'll get
to that. So yeah, quickly intro

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my background I gret actually
grew up my start with the

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program commenced in 1980. In
terms of institutional

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affiliation, I actually
graduated from the U of R then

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although I didn't work at La
during that time. During that

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time, I spent most of my
undergrad research with Dave

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Douglas and physics on gravity
waves. And I think he was still

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around, of course, that was not
with Frommers, but with silicon

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bars and Haiku, you know,
basically looking at the

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resonant excitation. But after
graduating from the U of R went

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to grad school at Princeton, I
actually started out in the same

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lab that Mike did his PhD work
in which was the electric

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propulsion lab and led by a guy
named Dean Bob John. And that

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was very interesting times
there. But then I quickly

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switched over to the plasma
physics lab because I was more

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interested in sort of the Plasma
Physics line, where I joined the

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X ray laser group in 1981. It
was led by Professor Shimon sick

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caver at Princeton who's still
there. Got to know Mike during

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that time, because at that time,
the X ray laser world was

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dominated by Livermore. The UK
is Josiah with my key and

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colleagues, France piers gelei
Sandhya. Keith, great to see

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you. And also physics
internationals, I recall, Dr.

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Dini knows them well stick them
long. Another figure from the

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past but very accurate extra
lasercut. Got to know Mike

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there. And he recruited me to to
Livermore in 1986, which is

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where it came after I got my
PhD. Just a quick comment on X

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ray lasers, which we can talk
about later. I think it's

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important to recognize that the
X ray laser program was really

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the first major or one of the
initial major efforts between

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the weapons program and the
laboratory experiments program,

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which really got the stockpile
stewardship connection between

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lasers. And the weapons program
goes an enormous step not just

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for X ray lasers, but also for
the nation in terms of getting a

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you know, an above ground
testing capability with lasers

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doing EGD physics, so anyway,
can't deliver on 86 Recruit

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recruited by Mike you know, work
with him there. I really enjoyed

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that for a while. 95 I actually
want to add, you know, thanks to

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Mike and Joe. I went to DOE as
an advisor in the ICF program

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office, I stayed there working
with Dave Crandall, de Great to

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see you and others for a number
of years, led a number of

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programs including ICF
construction for a short time

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actually was at the department
to through essentially 2007 came

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back to Livermore and that and
then served at the as the

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director of the nephews rockets,
essentially working on the NIF

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science, fundamental science
connection until in 2014, and

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went to Washington State
University, which is where you

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can see at the top is Vice
President for Research, or I am

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now and I continue collaborating
with Mike and Dr. DE Anita. I

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say that because there's a lot
of Chris's in the room this day,

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working in collaboration with
the Institute shock physics here

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at WSU and you are so great to
see so.

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Okay, thank you, Chris. Great,

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great introduction and Morty.
Are you Rosen you. Great to see

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you. Do you want to have a
chance here to tell us about

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yourself and your introductions
with Mike in the early days?

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Sure. Great

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to see everybody. I came to the
lab in 76 and as Livermore from

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from Princeton Plasma Physics
Lab. I came for the reason Mike

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said a few minutes ago, I talked
him back once it's built, you're

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stuck. A laser is just the
energy source and you can put a

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new token back in front of the
laser every single day. And that

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was a great choice and 46 years
later, I'm still working full

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time and enjoying that very
concepts. I want to just build a

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bridge back to our first section
this morning. Which will be an

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introduction of how I got into X
ray lazing because I started out

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in with John knuckles group I
was recruited by climax to and I

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started with the exploding
pushers. But we did have the IR

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catastrophe as Mike and Joe
pointed out and we started

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something new which is since the
targets weren't working

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properly, we decided to cut the
whole round in half along the

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waist and that in that way you
could see inside the target and

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Not just outside, and you put a
slab up against a hole in the

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back wall of a half round. And
you could see what was

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happening. And indeed, we saw
the preheats that the electrons

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were happening that we're
causing. That led to a whole

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concept of what we now call high
energy density, because you

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didn't just have to put the slab
that the capsule was you could

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put a piece of gold and watch
the X rays come through and

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measure opacity, et cetera, et
cetera, which is the great field

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of hGD. We have today, hydro
etc. Now, a colleague, a late

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colleague, Gabe zonkey, and
myself, basically proposed to

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the weapons weapons program, an
entire book full of ideas of

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what to do for hGD to help them.
But the weapons program and Mike

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Mike talked about North and
South Livermore. They were busy

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doing lots of tests, so they
weren't really interested. So

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they weren't interested in what
ABI had to offer and the laser

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program, he's interested in ICF.
They weren't interested in what

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he and I had to offer. It kind
of felt like an orphan for a

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while. But aw II had very few
tests, they were super

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interested in doing laser hGD.
And Brian Thomas and company

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there were kind of my soulmates
because they were interested in

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hGD. So in that background, Star
Wars was happening at the lab.

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And Peter Hagel, Stein, who had
certain calculational tools,

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wanted to exercise them on
laboratory experiments. And he

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had some ideas for the
transitions that an x ray laser

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would make in the laboratory
driven by our glass lasers. So

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John knockos, stuck his head in
my office one day and asked me

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if I could spend 20% of my time
helping Peter, with the design

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part. And the first meeting I
had with Peter and our boss at

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the time, for the Star Wars side
of the house, I learned

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something terrible, the thing I
learned was, we had no designs

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whatsoever for the X ray. And so
20 20% of my time literally

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became 200% of my time. I slept
on the floor of my office in a

241
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sleeping bag many nights,
because the laser was going to

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shut down in the summer, and we
had to get shots done. So no

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00:17:36.840 --> 00:17:41.400
ideas for target design, who
should walk into my office. But

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00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:46.590
our honoree, Mike Campbell, Mike
is amazing in his ability to go

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up and down the hallways, pop
his head and know exactly what

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people are doing. And he's the
great connector. And Mike said,

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you know, we're doing these LPI
experiments with this new

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platform and exploding pusher,
which, which explodes and makes

249
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a nice shallow gradients. So you
could actually be a good medium

250
00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:15.540
for having the extra laser
propagate. And I pursued that

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calculation only. And that is in
fact the target design that

252
00:18:19.620 --> 00:18:23.280
succeeded in the first
laboratory X ray laser. And I'm

253
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very proud and always will be
proud that Mike and I are the CO

254
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patent holders of that design.
So that's how we come from the

255
00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:38.100
first section of our talk this
morning to dissection on on X

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00:18:38.100 --> 00:18:40.740
ray lasers. I'll stop there for
now.

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Great, thanks, Marty. That's
great. That's fun to hear.

258
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It's neat to hear the connection
to the X ray lasers. Both you

259
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and Chris brought up and let me
pivot a little bit that back to

260
00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:55.950
Joe and give Joe an opportunity
to tell some of the early days

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stories and maybe also I'm
interested from all of you about

262
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you know, what, what do you
remember is Mike's earliest

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00:19:02.100 --> 00:19:06.300
contribution to the program you
know, it could go either way and

264
00:19:06.300 --> 00:19:08.790
positive one or negative one I
mean I'm sure there's there's

265
00:19:08.790 --> 00:19:11.550
both of them out there that that
might be fun to talk about. So

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00:19:11.700 --> 00:19:15.210
think about that and maybe weave
it into your stories as you go

267
00:19:15.210 --> 00:19:24.870
forward. So So Joe, do you want
to pick that up somehow you're

268
00:19:24.870 --> 00:19:39.090
muted we don't hear you Joe look
muted on there hear you duel

269
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Okay, can you hear

270
00:19:45.540 --> 00:19:57.390
me now? Okay. I'd like to talk
about the Nova epoch for a

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while.

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Um, Mike led that for 1015 years
and during that epoch, he was

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also the leader for a short time
of the laser technology program.

274
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And the bottom line on Nova and
beam lead, which was one of the

275
00:20:27.060 --> 00:20:35.550
proof of principle of the five
wonders of NIS was that we,

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00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:42.240
Mike, as the leader established
the technical basis in terms of

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00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:46.500
target shooting, and the laser
technology basis that enabled

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00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:55.410
enabled the review committees
and there were many of them, in

279
00:20:55.410 --> 00:20:59.640
particular, the exact committee
nourisher confinement fusion

280
00:20:59.670 --> 00:21:04.410
Advisory Committee, which met
seven or eight times in about

281
00:21:04.410 --> 00:21:11.790
five years, and then the
national, the NIS committee, to

282
00:21:11.790 --> 00:21:16.260
recommend going ahead when death
and this was time urgent, it

283
00:21:16.260 --> 00:21:21.510
wasn't obvious at the time, but
the great progress Z made wire

284
00:21:21.510 --> 00:21:26.310
arrange that had happened. Mike
has told me many times and we

285
00:21:26.310 --> 00:21:28.680
all believe in that that
happened a year or two earlier,

286
00:21:29.550 --> 00:21:33.300
we probably wouldn't have gone
ahead with Nick, because of

287
00:21:33.300 --> 00:21:38.460
Beamer and the target shooting
program, Nick went ahead. And

288
00:21:38.460 --> 00:21:42.600
that is, that's a great
achievement. And Mike is the one

289
00:21:42.600 --> 00:21:47.340
person in particular, the leader
and the person who made that

290
00:21:47.370 --> 00:21:50.700
happen. Thank you very much,
Mike. And it was a great

291
00:21:50.700 --> 00:21:57.600
privilege working with you
during that period. So let me

292
00:21:57.600 --> 00:22:05.760
talk a little bit about Nova. I
would like to share the screen

293
00:22:05.760 --> 00:22:08.850
and otherwise I will have to I
won't be able to show pictures.

294
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But none other than from either
about 19 83,000 to the year

295
00:22:14.820 --> 00:22:24.360
2000. During that period, the
British invasion happened.

296
00:22:26.100 --> 00:22:29.370
Joe Joe you're in share you Joe
you can share your screen you

297
00:22:29.370 --> 00:22:32.100
have something to share there Go
Go ahead, you should be able to

298
00:22:42.810 --> 00:22:44.190
you have to give them permission
there

299
00:22:47.910 --> 00:22:50.280
is a green button at the bottom
that says share.

300
00:22:52.380 --> 00:23:03.480
Five, five, validate the event
and access. Oh. Okay, well. Now

301
00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:07.680
that was one of the best laser
facilities ever and it certainly

302
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:13.230
in retrospect. During that
period, Mike took the lead and

303
00:23:13.230 --> 00:23:18.180
recruiting the British Invasion,
so I will rattle off the names

304
00:23:18.180 --> 00:23:21.720
now. But it wasn't only
Livermore. It was also

305
00:23:21.930 --> 00:23:28.020
Rochester. So very much is the
first vote Chester. Actually,

306
00:23:28.080 --> 00:23:31.620
probably before Mike Stein here,
Marty Richardson and Steve

307
00:23:31.620 --> 00:23:36.540
Paxton. Steve is still there, of
course. And then as part of the

308
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:40.980
mic instigated British Invasion
just in what was there for a

309
00:23:40.980 --> 00:23:45.720
year or two. Dave as in Bradley
was recruited there in about

310
00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:55.890
1986, Ricardo etheline and about
1988 and then Richard town and

311
00:23:56.580 --> 00:24:03.900
Nielsen Rochester, seven, seven
or eight people from Britain,

312
00:24:04.530 --> 00:24:09.720
and then at Livermore. I was
recruited in 19, the end of 19.

313
00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:16.170
Agency, I suppose the farmer by
Brian as in McAllen. Jonathan

314
00:24:16.170 --> 00:24:21.120
has was there for a short time
in the mid 80s. Nino as in

315
00:24:21.120 --> 00:24:27.630
Landon was recruited about 1989.
Badly came, Bradley came to

316
00:24:27.630 --> 00:24:37.590
Livermore about 1919 94. Mike
key recruited in 1996. John

317
00:24:37.590 --> 00:24:41.970
Edwards, recruited by the
following Maudie and Mike and I

318
00:24:41.970 --> 00:24:50.640
had a hand in that about 1997
Andy McKenna in 1999, which a

319
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:56.430
town came to live along I'm not
sure the exact day look and see

320
00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:03.480
and then more recently, pick one
Hohenberg Pataky Nagel and hall

321
00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:10.230
so there were a large number of
Britons and British people I

322
00:25:10.230 --> 00:25:14.460
have not mentioned and it is on
the view graph. Chris as in

323
00:25:14.460 --> 00:25:17.880
Dini, Chris Dini came from
Imperial College, I think he

324
00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:22.350
went to Pei first and he went to
Sandia. recruited by Dylan, I

325
00:25:22.350 --> 00:25:26.850
think, Daniel, and the early
90s. And of course, Mike

326
00:25:27.660 --> 00:25:31.890
mentioned Hector borders. And
part of this was to

327
00:25:37.500 --> 00:25:44.010
make the make the country they
go to richer, don't. And that

328
00:25:44.010 --> 00:25:50.640
was the kind of bilbies so we
might achievements in the Novi

329
00:25:50.970 --> 00:25:56.700
epoch, recruiting new staff.
Between us we increase the shot

330
00:25:56.700 --> 00:26:02.250
rate to about 1400 shots a year
at peak. And so a little while,

331
00:26:02.850 --> 00:26:08.070
I used to like to tease Bob
McCrory that you still haven't

332
00:26:08.070 --> 00:26:11.730
done as many shots in a year as
we have done on no but now that

333
00:26:12.030 --> 00:26:14.760
only lasted until about 1996.

334
00:26:22.170 --> 00:26:28.530
I had worked with Brian Thomas
as more dementia and and and the

335
00:26:28.530 --> 00:26:32.430
father weapon six of those is
Brian Thomas. My opinion and

336
00:26:32.430 --> 00:26:38.430
probably more use opinion. And
what we did on Nova was we

337
00:26:38.430 --> 00:26:44.160
introduced weapons technical
Nova, about the mid 80s. Now

338
00:26:44.190 --> 00:26:48.810
this was not a particularly
popular move with the Nitin with

339
00:26:48.810 --> 00:26:54.660
the Nova. Well, their laser
program management. Mike and I

340
00:26:54.660 --> 00:26:58.920
recall being summoned by one of
the laser programs may say you

341
00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:02.700
will not spend any more shots on
Nova, or weapons physics, I

342
00:27:02.700 --> 00:27:07.410
forget who said that, Mike, you
can probably remind them. And

343
00:27:07.410 --> 00:27:09.660
we've learned this and there
were two particular examples.

344
00:27:09.660 --> 00:27:13.380
One was on hydrodynamic
instabilities, the other one was

345
00:27:13.380 --> 00:27:18.810
on opacities. And in the end, in
1999, most of the shots on over

346
00:27:19.110 --> 00:27:24.210
were for weapons. We introduced
the university use of NOVA

347
00:27:24.210 --> 00:27:28.440
program, which spent about 10 or
15% of the shop, or a

348
00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:33.720
competitively run program. Yeah,
that's kind of part of the idea

349
00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:41.280
of the Omega laser you're having
on during this period. And then

350
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:49.470
it's moldy already mentioned.
Mike, and others, won the Dawson

351
00:27:49.470 --> 00:27:52.500
Award, which which was the
Excellence in plasma physics is

352
00:27:52.500 --> 00:27:56.550
a time of war for the love
barteri X ray laser, and then in

353
00:27:56.550 --> 00:28:03.510
particular, I think we knew when
to shut it down. We decided to

354
00:28:03.510 --> 00:28:10.710
shut it down in the year 2000.
But we didn't used to talk about

355
00:28:10.710 --> 00:28:15.060
succession plans at the time,
but we we got omega ready to

356
00:28:15.060 --> 00:28:19.650
learn. So we did an experiment
on omega, showing that we can

357
00:28:19.650 --> 00:28:22.080
measure the temperature of
hormones on omega with all the

358
00:28:22.080 --> 00:28:25.890
standard stuff that we used on
Nova and then we shut Nova down

359
00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:34.200
to focus our efforts on the NIF.
Now, as I said in the 90s, might

360
00:28:34.290 --> 00:28:38.970
lead the laser technology
programs there are five wonders

361
00:28:38.970 --> 00:28:45.600
of NIF multisegment amplifiers
plasma electronic pocket cell

362
00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:56.700
deformable mirrors I should
remind you views on my view

363
00:28:56.700 --> 00:29:02.430
class you can't see the wonders
of nipple encapsulated in the

364
00:29:02.430 --> 00:29:08.760
bailiff. Okay, remind you who
ran the beam that it was Jack as

365
00:29:08.760 --> 00:29:16.260
in Campbell was the guy and Mike
and I interviewed Bruno for his

366
00:29:16.290 --> 00:29:26.070
job on the south on on the last
importer of Paris in Idaho 1980.

367
00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:33.090
But the beam that showed that
Nick was ready in a laser

368
00:29:33.090 --> 00:29:38.640
technic technology sense. And
then during this period as

369
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:42.630
Melissa said, we worked
intensively with the other labs

370
00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:50.760
on on Nova and Allen, our
central station there and a lot

371
00:29:50.760 --> 00:29:55.170
of valuable work was done by Las
Animas on over justifying

372
00:29:55.920 --> 00:30:02.280
technical conflict. Mike had
this great idea Cody Sian the

373
00:30:04.350 --> 00:30:10.530
nine programs on target shooting
in the know their technical

374
00:30:10.530 --> 00:30:15.780
concepts. And these were called
the HLP HLP, one to five maybe

375
00:30:15.810 --> 00:30:20.460
already concurrently and ATP
wants to five things like show a

376
00:30:20.460 --> 00:30:23.550
convergence of 20 and show you
understand the baby tail

377
00:30:23.550 --> 00:30:29.190
instability show you can
suppress LPI, etc, etc. And this

378
00:30:29.190 --> 00:30:35.670
codification is very important
because that focus the work of

379
00:30:35.670 --> 00:30:41.250
Livermore and Los Alamos and
Sandia to some extent on Lobo

380
00:30:41.280 --> 00:30:48.000
justify, and that we understand
the target physics program. And

381
00:30:48.030 --> 00:30:53.910
this led to eventually, as I
said, the community backing

382
00:30:54.450 --> 00:31:02.970
nests, inputting particular Los
Alamos and Sandia. So the when,

383
00:31:03.150 --> 00:31:10.500
when we made the final case for
NIST before the 1996, or 1997,

384
00:31:10.950 --> 00:31:16.020
na s committee, they said, they
said, Go ahead, they actually

385
00:31:16.020 --> 00:31:16.500
said,

386
00:31:17.850 --> 00:31:21.150
laser micro fusion facility is
too big a job. And this is an

387
00:31:21.150 --> 00:31:24.690
intermediate facility showing
that we can get ignition, and

388
00:31:24.690 --> 00:31:31.350
this was 1996 1997. And here we
are, up the shot last year,

389
00:31:31.350 --> 00:31:37.170
shall we can you mention we were
not. We were accurate in our

390
00:31:37.170 --> 00:31:42.660
predictions and review
committees worldwide. So my

391
00:31:42.660 --> 00:31:46.260
bottom line is that Nova and
Bhima establish the basis and

392
00:31:46.260 --> 00:31:51.240
this was time urgent, we didn't
quite recognize it at the time,

393
00:31:51.240 --> 00:31:56.220
because Keith and Jeff Quinn
turned and managed to get high

394
00:31:56.220 --> 00:32:00.840
XP conversion from while based
on Lee. And had they died a year

395
00:32:00.840 --> 00:32:06.060
too early, and maybe NIF would
not have happened. But But Oscar

396
00:32:06.060 --> 00:32:11.040
had witnessed is Mike's great
achievement. It's been a

397
00:32:11.040 --> 00:32:14.760
pleasure working on this for
many, many years. And it's been

398
00:32:14.760 --> 00:32:18.900
a really great pleasure working
with you and for you, Mike, and

399
00:32:19.770 --> 00:32:24.450
I'm greatly honored to be able
to say this at you all the time.

400
00:32:24.870 --> 00:32:28.380
Thank you. Thank you, Joe, thank
you for Hey.

401
00:32:33.870 --> 00:32:36.870
Let me put it back a little bit
to the X ray laser time because

402
00:32:36.870 --> 00:32:41.280
this was a period of really
excitement in the program. And I

403
00:32:41.280 --> 00:32:44.370
think really brought a lot of
people to the ICF program,

404
00:32:44.370 --> 00:32:46.830
ultimately, not only the
technology that's been out of

405
00:32:46.830 --> 00:32:50.640
that, but the people and so let
me come back to you, Chris, and

406
00:32:50.670 --> 00:32:52.890
hear what you have to say on
that. And then that exciting

407
00:32:52.890 --> 00:32:55.080
time, and maybe Morty will
follow up with you.

408
00:32:56.400 --> 00:33:00.270
Yeah, thanks, Dustin. Yeah, I'll
go through a couple of specifics

409
00:33:00.270 --> 00:33:02.250
and things that happened in a
minute. But I just want to

410
00:33:02.250 --> 00:33:06.240
again, just emphasize that, you
know, nowadays, we think of

411
00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:09.360
stockpile stewardship, high
energy density physics, you

412
00:33:09.360 --> 00:33:11.760
know, this is all obvious,
right? You'd have to have a big

413
00:33:11.760 --> 00:33:15.030
laser as part of a program to
maintain nuclear weapons without

414
00:33:15.030 --> 00:33:18.780
testing. This is just obvious.
Well, it certainly wasn't

415
00:33:18.780 --> 00:33:22.350
obvious, though, back in the
early days, right. And I think

416
00:33:22.350 --> 00:33:24.810
one important thing to mention
to remember about the X ray

417
00:33:24.810 --> 00:33:27.750
laser program was it was a case
where great science came

418
00:33:27.750 --> 00:33:30.960
together with great technology,
both in lasers, and in the

419
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:33.930
weapons program to solve a
problem, which is actually how

420
00:33:33.930 --> 00:33:36.360
things actually work today in
the stockpile stewardship

421
00:33:36.360 --> 00:33:40.080
program, so the importance of
the entire extra laser effort,

422
00:33:40.590 --> 00:33:44.310
for sure, sort of showing proof
of principle for ATT as a tool

423
00:33:44.310 --> 00:33:46.470
for stockpile stewardship,
really, it was a critical

424
00:33:46.470 --> 00:33:49.080
contribution, Mike, your
leadership and making those

425
00:33:49.080 --> 00:33:52.470
connections obvious People to
People was really important at

426
00:33:52.470 --> 00:33:55.620
the conceptual level to
Congress, and others. And of

427
00:33:55.620 --> 00:33:59.190
course, it contributed to, you
know, NIF as an ignition

428
00:33:59.250 --> 00:34:02.970
facility as well as Joe just
very nicely describe it. Just a

429
00:34:02.970 --> 00:34:06.450
little bit of background on the
X ray laser period. Again, I got

430
00:34:06.450 --> 00:34:11.430
to Livermore in 1980. And this
was a really fun and intense

431
00:34:11.430 --> 00:34:14.760
period for X ray laser research
everyone was was competing with

432
00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:19.680
each other watching papers and
conferences on a regular basis.

433
00:34:20.310 --> 00:34:23.970
major players again, Livermore
the UK rally, as Joe pointed

434
00:34:23.970 --> 00:34:27.090
out, they were a real leader
having that facility. My keen

435
00:34:27.090 --> 00:34:31.230
colleagues, Pierre Jacques, les
in France, many of you remember

436
00:34:32.010 --> 00:34:37.020
Chris, your work and Pei and
Keith, your work at Sandia. Just

437
00:34:37.020 --> 00:34:40.080
lots of excitement. And then you
know, basically this all came to

438
00:34:40.080 --> 00:34:44.670
a head in summer 84 When
Livermore announced the neon

439
00:34:44.670 --> 00:34:49.590
like Selenium results, which was
just a tremendous advance and

440
00:34:49.590 --> 00:34:53.400
just generated huge excitement
in the field. And at Princeton.

441
00:34:55.050 --> 00:34:58.170
Our groups led by Shimon cicada
also announced some

442
00:34:58.170 --> 00:35:02.670
recombination results as well.
So the of APS meeting and 1984.

443
00:35:02.670 --> 00:35:07.590
November 84 was a real watershed
for X ray laser research. And it

444
00:35:07.590 --> 00:35:12.300
was it was just a lot of fun.
And those are in those days, you

445
00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:14.850
know, to the comments we heard
earlier about Peter Hagel,

446
00:35:14.850 --> 00:35:18.180
Steens thesis, there were sort
of three schemes will pursue the

447
00:35:18.180 --> 00:35:22.410
collisional excitation, which
was what worked in 1984, with

448
00:35:22.410 --> 00:35:26.100
neon like Selenium
recombination, which Princeton

449
00:35:26.130 --> 00:35:30.630
was working on also, UK was a
primary focus at Rao. And then

450
00:35:30.630 --> 00:35:33.780
resonant photo excitation, which
was done at a number of places,

451
00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:37.350
including it with our pulse
power facilities. So three great

452
00:35:37.350 --> 00:35:39.480
screams. And then there are, of
course, many others over time.

453
00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:44.160
So it's just great to explore
all those success in 84. And

454
00:35:44.160 --> 00:35:47.280
then the work continued with a
goal of trying to get an extra

455
00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:52.860
laser to the which worked in
finally worked in 990 90. I want

456
00:35:52.860 --> 00:35:58.710
to just on the British Invasion
point, highlight others in that

457
00:35:58.980 --> 00:36:02.520
play a critical for all x ray
laser team. So again, the X ray

458
00:36:02.520 --> 00:36:06.990
laser effort brought together
just a great team of

459
00:36:07.290 --> 00:36:10.050
people. Hold on one second,
Chris, before we

460
00:36:12.450 --> 00:36:14.340
get to medical there, Chris,
just one second.

461
00:36:17.520 --> 00:36:20.910
Now the recording stuff started
we're gonna get it out the

462
00:36:20.910 --> 00:36:26.820
window gene test. Six. Let's see
if it works. Now. Go ahead.

463
00:36:27.870 --> 00:36:31.560
Okay, great. So anyway, just it
was a it was a great period. And

464
00:36:31.560 --> 00:36:34.350
and I just would also, you know,
just Mike for you. I would just

465
00:36:34.350 --> 00:36:38.040
also like to mention, one of the
reasons this happened is an x

466
00:36:38.040 --> 00:36:41.490
ray laser work continued through
1990 Was your realization of the

467
00:36:41.490 --> 00:36:44.490
importance of following through
in this really leading edge

468
00:36:44.490 --> 00:36:47.850
scientific program again, and
looking back and say, Well, this

469
00:36:47.850 --> 00:36:51.150
is obvious, you keep on working
out lasers, X ray lasers when

470
00:36:51.150 --> 00:36:54.090
she succeeded, you know, at the
time, it often wasn't so

471
00:36:54.090 --> 00:36:57.030
obvious, because there was a lot
of programmatic pressures and a

472
00:36:57.030 --> 00:37:00.390
lot of pressure to do other
things. And so Mike, your

473
00:37:00.390 --> 00:37:03.090
adherence to getting a carrying
us through all the way into the

474
00:37:03.090 --> 00:37:09.120
early 90s on this and your
dedication to, to getting doing

475
00:37:09.120 --> 00:37:11.340
the best science and making the
maximum impact and it's

476
00:37:11.340 --> 00:37:13.980
important field is really
appreciate it was very

477
00:37:13.980 --> 00:37:16.710
important. So I'll just finished
again, Mike, it's an

478
00:37:16.710 --> 00:37:19.680
extraordinary honor to be here
today, and to salute you for all

479
00:37:19.680 --> 00:37:20.700
your work. So thank you.

480
00:37:21.960 --> 00:37:22.740
Thank you, Chris.

481
00:37:23.130 --> 00:37:27.030
Chris. Chris said the follow up
question. One of the other

482
00:37:27.030 --> 00:37:29.460
things that always seemed like
that was that there truly is a

483
00:37:29.460 --> 00:37:35.100
program really advanced the
whole field of diagnostics, on

484
00:37:35.100 --> 00:37:36.150
these facilities.

485
00:37:36.870 --> 00:37:38.310
Could you comment on that?

486
00:37:38.820 --> 00:37:42.600
Yeah, that's absolutely right.
Chris, I mean, street cameras,

487
00:37:42.600 --> 00:37:46.680
framing cameras, you know, the
ability because as I think Marty

488
00:37:46.980 --> 00:37:50.670
alluded to, what really made it
work was not some esoteric

489
00:37:50.670 --> 00:37:53.700
atomic physics issue, but
rather, you know, plasma

490
00:37:53.700 --> 00:37:56.490
physics, right, getting the X
ray laser to propagate and

491
00:37:56.490 --> 00:38:00.660
diagnostics are critical to to
being able to see that. Okay, so

492
00:38:00.660 --> 00:38:03.660
yeah, if it weren't for those
advances, we wouldn't have made

493
00:38:03.660 --> 00:38:08.820
it. And diagnostics have
actually, in fact, enabled most

494
00:38:08.850 --> 00:38:12.510
many or most of the scientific
advances that have happened in

495
00:38:12.510 --> 00:38:17.490
hGD, laser fusion and its
relationship. Already, would you

496
00:38:17.490 --> 00:38:18.360
like an opportunity to

497
00:38:18.600 --> 00:38:22.440
talk about X ray lasers a little
bit before we pivot over to Los

498
00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:26.910
Alamos and some of Mike's
contributions there.

499
00:38:27.810 --> 00:38:33.480
Yeah, I sort of want to focus on
one main thing. And it has to do

500
00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:38.460
even with stewardship today. The
most important thing of all is

501
00:38:38.460 --> 00:38:45.420
people and the X ray laser
efforts brought in such quality

502
00:38:45.420 --> 00:38:49.620
people and Mike Campbell, is the
great recruiter, besides the

503
00:38:49.620 --> 00:38:52.590
great communicator and the great
connector. He's the great

504
00:38:52.590 --> 00:38:57.330
recruiter. Obviously, Joe
Kennedy is the poster child for

505
00:38:57.390 --> 00:39:03.750
a great recruit, because Joe
really became the leader. But in

506
00:39:03.750 --> 00:39:08.400
the X ray laser effort itself,
that people recruited, just go

507
00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:12.930
through a few names and for x
ray laser work, Jim traipse, he

508
00:39:12.930 --> 00:39:17.280
became the head of the physics
department, Brian McGowan, and

509
00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:20.640
Bruce Hamel. They each in their
turn were head of the ICF

510
00:39:20.640 --> 00:39:27.660
program. Chris Kane, of course,
we've heard from and on the

511
00:39:27.660 --> 00:39:32.040
theory side, rich London is
distinguished physicist. And so

512
00:39:32.040 --> 00:39:35.250
the extra laser program in my
view, one of its great

513
00:39:35.490 --> 00:39:39.480
contributions in the end,
besides maybe winning the Cold

514
00:39:39.480 --> 00:39:45.930
War was was the people that
became leaders. And that's a

515
00:39:45.930 --> 00:39:50.340
very important concept that I
wanted to get across. I'll just

516
00:39:50.340 --> 00:39:51.180
leave it at that.

517
00:39:53.010 --> 00:39:56.100
Thanks, Mark. We're gonna pivot
a little bit we can always come

518
00:39:56.100 --> 00:40:00.450
back to that but Melissa, do you
know how was how was My viewed

519
00:40:00.450 --> 00:40:04.110
in Los Alamos over this time,
and what do you what are your

520
00:40:04.140 --> 00:40:15.690
What are your thoughts on that
it has in the 1980s? TSC? I

521
00:40:15.690 --> 00:40:17.100
think you're muted if you're
talking

522
00:40:18.390 --> 00:40:20.160
to think better. There we go.

523
00:40:24.900 --> 00:40:28.080
Yellow Light. Everybody. We
don't

524
00:40:28.890 --> 00:40:30.330
we still don't hear you,
Melissa.

525
00:40:32.100 --> 00:40:38.550
Can you hear me now? Yeah. In
the early era, in the late 80s,

526
00:40:38.550 --> 00:40:43.950
Mike was seen by most people at
Los Alamos as a great threat.

527
00:40:44.520 --> 00:40:49.200
But a great salesman, and people
were speculating on what was

528
00:40:49.200 --> 00:40:53.490
being sold next. Some of us who
are coming up through the

529
00:40:53.490 --> 00:40:58.350
trenches, at that time in the
80s, really, were looking around

530
00:40:58.350 --> 00:41:02.730
the country for a leadership and
an ICF. And we were struggling

531
00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:07.170
to see it. And then, as we
started looking for

532
00:41:07.170 --> 00:41:13.230
collaborations in the NOVA
program with Joe and Morty, and

533
00:41:14.310 --> 00:41:18.600
folks at Livermore, it was
obvious that the great leader in

534
00:41:18.600 --> 00:41:24.960
the program was Mike. And we at
Los Alamos had to lock the line

535
00:41:25.650 --> 00:41:30.450
of how we stay true to our
beliefs. And what we thought was

536
00:41:30.720 --> 00:41:34.020
the credibility of the
experimental work going on it

537
00:41:34.020 --> 00:41:39.630
No, but and also to try to be
able to come and contribute to

538
00:41:39.630 --> 00:41:43.800
the Nova technical program as
well. And that was very hard

539
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:47.340
coming from a Los Alamos
perspective. And it took the

540
00:41:47.340 --> 00:41:52.770
leadership of Mike, and people
like Joe, to recognize that,

541
00:41:53.910 --> 00:41:59.190
that there were some very
forward leaning ideas at Los

542
00:41:59.190 --> 00:42:03.570
Alamos that could be applied to
the Nova technical contract, and

543
00:42:03.600 --> 00:42:07.560
that could move the program
forward. And I must say, having

544
00:42:07.560 --> 00:42:12.270
been in later leadership
positions, and as deputy of the

545
00:42:12.270 --> 00:42:16.170
weapons program at Livermore,
that's one of the hard things to

546
00:42:17.130 --> 00:42:21.570
to accomplish is how you leave
your program at your laboratory,

547
00:42:21.900 --> 00:42:26.130
but find find room for
exceptional contributions from

548
00:42:26.130 --> 00:42:31.680
others. And I think Mike always
knew that and that was something

549
00:42:31.710 --> 00:42:35.250
innate to his nature that you
could see play out through his

550
00:42:35.250 --> 00:42:40.800
whole career. Things that Los
Alamos worked on for Livermore

551
00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:44.460
ahead the history of the weapons
program and lasers. It wasn't

552
00:42:44.460 --> 00:42:48.090
there at Los Alamos, it just
wasn't. And the weapons program

553
00:42:48.090 --> 00:42:52.260
was extremely skeptical of any
utility of hydrogen density

554
00:42:52.260 --> 00:42:57.000
physics for a very long time.
But through Mike's leadership,

555
00:42:57.180 --> 00:43:00.900
Los Alamos was able to execute
some the first weapons physics

556
00:43:00.900 --> 00:43:04.710
experiment, a few of us from the
underground test program, worked

557
00:43:04.710 --> 00:43:09.180
on the design and executed the
experiments on Nova. It was

558
00:43:09.180 --> 00:43:13.110
highly successful. And that
heralded in a new era for Los

559
00:43:13.110 --> 00:43:16.800
Alamos. So largely that was
because Mike helped make that

560
00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:22.440
happen. There were was the work
by Ellen Hauer and others at Los

561
00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:29.520
Alamos, working on symmetry on
ANOVA. Those experiments went

562
00:43:29.520 --> 00:43:32.970
pretty well. But there are other
experiments in plasma physics,

563
00:43:33.270 --> 00:43:37.350
where we came to blows with
Livermore. And I remember many,

564
00:43:37.350 --> 00:43:41.220
many late night conversations,
almost all my conversations with

565
00:43:41.220 --> 00:43:45.450
Mike as I became leader of the
ICF program at Los Alamos, or

566
00:43:45.450 --> 00:43:48.480
after eight o'clock at night,
you know, I would get the call,

567
00:43:48.540 --> 00:43:51.450
I knew it wasn't, you know, the
boyfriend I wasn't paying

568
00:43:51.450 --> 00:43:54.510
attention to because I was
working all the time. I knew it

569
00:43:54.510 --> 00:43:59.280
was my calling, and wanting to
chat about like, what new

570
00:43:59.520 --> 00:44:04.050
problems the plasma physicists
at Los Alamos were causing for

571
00:44:04.290 --> 00:44:11.700
politics on this. I mean, it was
highly collaborative at all

572
00:44:11.700 --> 00:44:17.580
times. But it took a while for
the the leadership at Los Alamos

573
00:44:17.580 --> 00:44:23.040
to understand where Mike was
trying to go, and I think they

574
00:44:23.040 --> 00:44:26.730
didn't always believe it. They
didn't always believe everything

575
00:44:26.730 --> 00:44:29.940
he was saying. They didn't
necessarily believe the vision,

576
00:44:29.970 --> 00:44:34.710
but many of us working at lower
levels, we did believe it and we

577
00:44:34.710 --> 00:44:41.550
tried to go where his vision led
us toward nips. I can only say

578
00:44:41.550 --> 00:44:44.910
from my perspective, I always
thought Mike is an incredible

579
00:44:44.910 --> 00:44:50.520
leader and incredible salesman.
Always working people and

580
00:44:50.520 --> 00:44:54.480
working the system, but also
doing it with with the reality

581
00:44:54.510 --> 00:44:59.250
that he truly cared about the
individual and truly cared about

582
00:44:59.250 --> 00:44:59.940
the science

583
00:45:02.460 --> 00:45:03.450
Yeah, well said,

584
00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:04.380
Melissa, well said,

585
00:45:04.620 --> 00:45:05.430
Thank you, Melissa.

586
00:45:07.560 --> 00:45:10.650
Let me put it back to you, Joe.
And one of the questions about

587
00:45:10.890 --> 00:45:14.670
how the laboratory micro fusion
facility evolved into the

588
00:45:14.670 --> 00:45:19.590
National Ignition Facility and
maybe any stories and that you

589
00:45:19.590 --> 00:45:22.830
can remember and Mike's role in
selling that program, I think

590
00:45:23.070 --> 00:45:26.640
all of us recognize a critical
component to that.

591
00:45:27.930 --> 00:45:39.600
Yeah. I have a meeting, which is
the same time as the so called

592
00:45:39.780 --> 00:45:47.100
Madrid manifesto, the manifesto.
I don't know why we get that

593
00:45:47.100 --> 00:45:53.400
most, but can you still hear me?
Can you still

594
00:45:55.020 --> 00:45:59.640
get an echo Joe? Okay.

595
00:46:04.020 --> 00:46:05.130
Joe, why don't you?

596
00:46:07.710 --> 00:46:10.230
Why don't you turn your video
off just in case and it says

597
00:46:10.230 --> 00:46:11.310
it's suggesting the bandwidth.

598
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:17.520
And we were very optimistic in
our costing of it.

599
00:46:19.200 --> 00:46:27.000
embarrassingly low number that I
conveniently forget. But as we

600
00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:32.760
develop the laser technology for
Mike was there a lot more about

601
00:46:32.760 --> 00:46:40.500
this? And was a breakthrough
probably credited to John as in

602
00:46:40.500 --> 00:46:45.270
limbo of going to higher
temperatures. We thought in the

603
00:46:45.270 --> 00:46:52.650
end that we could get there with
I think we said 1.3 mega joules

604
00:46:54.900 --> 00:47:03.150
out of 10 or 20% and thus the
NIF was designed to be a 1.8

605
00:47:03.150 --> 00:47:11.880
mega joule facility and that all
happen in the end of the 80s and

606
00:47:12.330 --> 00:47:18.900
then beginning of the 90s but it
was the laser technology in

607
00:47:18.900 --> 00:47:30.060
particular I think that enabled
us to cost cost the net more

608
00:47:30.060 --> 00:47:34.140
accurately I trying to figure
out how to do this create screen

609
00:47:34.140 --> 00:47:34.740
sharing

610
00:47:39.870 --> 00:47:42.630
if it's easier Joe you can email
it to me as well I can

611
00:47:42.630 --> 00:47:51.360
showcase I've been unsuccessful
in doing okay. So so then the

612
00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:59.820
other thing I would mention for
the my memory here was the what

613
00:47:59.820 --> 00:48:10.800
is the Cinderella guess what the
Cinderella was and guess who was

614
00:48:11.940 --> 00:48:15.900
a major league leader at Los
Alamos for target fabrication,

615
00:48:15.930 --> 00:48:25.380
it was Lowry foreman. One of the
other miracles of icy is beta

616
00:48:25.380 --> 00:48:29.250
layering. Beta layering as you
all must have you must know is a

617
00:48:29.250 --> 00:48:34.650
process where a slightly thicker
piece of cryogenic deuterium

618
00:48:35.130 --> 00:48:41.280
sublimates and becomes thinner
and smoothed out because of the

619
00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:45.990
basic decay of the tritium and
and that that again was I think

620
00:48:45.990 --> 00:48:51.840
that was invented at Los Alamos
wasn't it but it's a bind nobody

621
00:48:51.840 --> 00:48:57.270
you know battle or someone like
that. But Lowry as informants

622
00:48:58.200 --> 00:49:06.480
who unfortunately died a while
ago. Mike, I believe I believe

623
00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:11.340
this divine like you managed to
get him the Talent Award before

624
00:49:11.340 --> 00:49:28.320
he died. Oh, Mike. B. Let me
again say that it's very fitting

625
00:49:28.650 --> 00:49:36.450
that you've retired now. I can
can my screen be seen?

626
00:49:39.630 --> 00:49:42.780
Yeah, I'm still not still not
doing it. If you send it to me.

627
00:49:43.020 --> 00:49:46.140
I can put it up, Joe. It's easy
for you.

628
00:49:46.710 --> 00:49:54.660
Anyway, so Melissa, I believe I
made up a baseball cap that says

629
00:49:55.050 --> 00:49:58.470
in Latin, I don't think she was
a great Latin scholar actually.

630
00:49:58.470 --> 00:50:03.090
Nor was I but it It says in
Latin ignitions before

631
00:50:03.090 --> 00:50:08.220
retirement. So isn't that
prescient? Yeah, we got ignition

632
00:50:08.220 --> 00:50:12.540
last year. Well, most, and now
you've retired. So

633
00:50:12.540 --> 00:50:17.160
congratulations, Mike ignition.
And before retirement, you did

634
00:50:17.160 --> 00:50:17.640
it make.

635
00:50:19.470 --> 00:50:22.440
I was supposed to bring a hat
for you. And I think I have it

636
00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:30.300
but I couldn't find we had

637
00:50:32.790 --> 00:50:35.520
let's just say something so pops
up onto the center of the

638
00:50:35.520 --> 00:50:41.550
screen, if you can do it,

639
00:50:41.820 --> 00:50:43.020
or you can make it fullscreen.

640
00:50:46.890 --> 00:50:52.110
It's a huge pleasure to say that
Mike actually made it. After

641
00:50:52.110 --> 00:50:56.700
retirement, you know, many of us
we bailed out before retirement.

642
00:50:56.700 --> 00:50:57.150
So.

643
00:51:01.470 --> 00:51:07.950
Great. So big, up to the panel.
Is there anything we've missed

644
00:51:07.950 --> 00:51:11.430
that you'd like to share? Anyone
have anything they want to

645
00:51:11.580 --> 00:51:18.120
summarize? Before we move on? If
you didn't, I will absolutely

646
00:51:18.120 --> 00:51:24.630
come to you in a second.
Anything there? Okay. So you

647
00:51:24.630 --> 00:51:28.440
know, I think it's pretty neat
the revolution of the 1980s and

648
00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:31.590
love both, you know, lasers,
laser science. And of course,

649
00:51:31.590 --> 00:51:35.610
the bridge was really foundation
for much of what LLP is today.

650
00:51:35.940 --> 00:51:39.750
Right? If you think about that,
and it fostered that transition

651
00:51:39.750 --> 00:51:43.440
from IFP focus laboratory to one
that supports the science

652
00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:49.650
stockpile stewardship. In a way,
we have a lot to thank you for

653
00:51:49.650 --> 00:51:52.770
In addition, as you listen to
these stories, and you recognize

654
00:51:52.770 --> 00:51:57.420
the connections and you see what
we are have become and how

655
00:51:57.420 --> 00:52:01.650
fitting it was for you to end
your career at the laboratory as

656
00:52:01.650 --> 00:52:05.580
our director by remarkable, so
let me open it up to you, Mike

657
00:52:05.580 --> 00:52:09.510
and give you a chance to share
about the 1988 and

658
00:52:10.050 --> 00:52:11.280
the the stories.

659
00:52:12.060 --> 00:52:15.960
It was a wonderful time, as Joe
said, and Morty said, somebody's

660
00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:19.440
got a little bit x ray lasers
first. So actually, when I went

661
00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:21.690
live while I was very interested
in X ray laser, because I just

662
00:52:21.690 --> 00:52:24.690
work I did the principles on
recombination lasers actually

663
00:52:24.690 --> 00:52:28.890
made I actually made a
recombination visible laser. But

664
00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:32.970
when we started doing as Marty
and I said before, there was a

665
00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:36.690
no connection between a weapons
program and lasers, and more I

666
00:52:36.690 --> 00:52:40.080
remember Morty doing a lot of
work with AIDS, okay of saying

667
00:52:40.110 --> 00:52:42.840
he could do relevant work in the
laser in the laboratory for the

668
00:52:42.840 --> 00:52:44.430
weapons permit. They just
weren't interested because they

669
00:52:44.430 --> 00:52:47.700
were testing and then like, but
the X ray laser program came

670
00:52:47.700 --> 00:52:52.800
along. And the lab wanted Peter
Hagelstein to get known for his

671
00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:55.260
work, because they were fearful
that he would leave the

672
00:52:55.260 --> 00:53:00.060
laboratory. And so I was
instructed to, you know, open up

673
00:53:00.060 --> 00:53:03.060
to that. And so that's when
Morty got involved. I remember

674
00:53:03.090 --> 00:53:05.820
coming, I'll become we're only
at seven o'clock morning and I

675
00:53:05.820 --> 00:53:08.790
think I'd have to wake up and
Morty was on his on his sleeping

676
00:53:08.790 --> 00:53:12.240
bag in his office. I remember
that many times. Having to you

677
00:53:12.240 --> 00:53:14.550
know, he was just waking up. I
thought so I gave him coffee,

678
00:53:14.550 --> 00:53:18.180
whatever it was, but I remember
that. And then what how this

679
00:53:18.180 --> 00:53:21.840
came about, you know, the the
target design, we were pogroms

680
00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:25.230
reclassified. At that time, we
knew that ramen was the major

681
00:53:25.230 --> 00:53:28.350
hot electron source, but we
couldn't talk about it. So I

682
00:53:28.350 --> 00:53:32.580
asked Paul Drake recruiting from
The MFE program to come in let's

683
00:53:32.580 --> 00:53:35.040
design experiments that could
show Raman could be very

684
00:53:35.040 --> 00:53:38.010
efficient. And so the exploding
coils were developed for that.

685
00:53:38.430 --> 00:53:43.950
And then I remember we were
shooting selenium. This nothing

686
00:53:43.980 --> 00:53:46.770
saying nothing. So Peter
Hagelstein pains my office one

687
00:53:46.770 --> 00:53:50.910
day and literally was crying,
this is not going to work. It's

688
00:53:50.910 --> 00:53:54.960
not going to work. And we
started talking, I started go,

689
00:53:55.020 --> 00:53:57.960
Well, you don't We don't need so
these things have gained five

690
00:53:57.960 --> 00:54:00.180
inverse centimeters. So we don't
measure gain, we measure

691
00:54:00.180 --> 00:54:04.170
amplification and has to
propagate. And, and there's

692
00:54:04.170 --> 00:54:06.630
conditions that the plasma
density and temperature were

693
00:54:06.630 --> 00:54:09.510
like what we're seeing for the
ROM and stuff. And so I looked

694
00:54:09.510 --> 00:54:12.450
at that, well, this is a
convective instability to we

695
00:54:12.450 --> 00:54:15.450
need shallow gradients. And so I
went the morning, that's all

696
00:54:15.450 --> 00:54:17.700
morning, I had that discussion,
and then morning did design

697
00:54:17.700 --> 00:54:22.500
work, and showed it worked. And
then I remember the first shot I

698
00:54:22.500 --> 00:54:26.790
was home. Dennis Matt was doing
the experiments. He said, You

699
00:54:26.790 --> 00:54:28.740
got to come into the lab,
there's like midnight, so I

700
00:54:28.740 --> 00:54:31.710
drove into the lab. One of the
we're still recording it on

701
00:54:31.710 --> 00:54:37.620
film, kind of caught my eye was
a great guy pulled out the film

702
00:54:37.620 --> 00:54:41.280
and there were two black spots.
Basically burn holes in the film

703
00:54:41.280 --> 00:54:44.850
work the first time, Denison
went down to a little bar and I

704
00:54:44.850 --> 00:54:50.310
had a Diet Coke and didn't have
Cosmo's at the time. But that

705
00:54:50.310 --> 00:54:52.980
was that was the beginning of
the weapons program showing at

706
00:54:52.980 --> 00:54:56.490
least beginning some interest in
this. And so it was more he said

707
00:54:56.490 --> 00:55:00.600
it was the beginning of weapons.
Beginning of It took a longer

708
00:55:00.600 --> 00:55:04.380
time, you know, to do this, some
of the other things. And but one

709
00:55:04.380 --> 00:55:07.650
of the things about diagnostics,
as you all know, UV lithography.

710
00:55:08.190 --> 00:55:12.450
He is the lithography came out
of the X ray laser program. And

711
00:55:12.450 --> 00:55:17.100
there was a guy, Andy heroic.
His brother was a famous

712
00:55:17.100 --> 00:55:20.760
physicist at Princeton. He came
to me one day and said, We can

713
00:55:20.760 --> 00:55:24.420
do lithography. Now, we can do
lithography. And I said, you

714
00:55:24.420 --> 00:55:28.140
know, what are you talking
about? So I first learned about

715
00:55:28.140 --> 00:55:31.740
the photography and member
feature size depend on the

716
00:55:31.740 --> 00:55:34.440
wavelength of the light. And at
that time, the wavelength was in

717
00:55:34.440 --> 00:55:38.100
the UV and we were making
100 100 angstrom light. So it

718
00:55:38.100 --> 00:55:41.340
says, Well, we have the mirrors
that actually can now focus in

719
00:55:41.340 --> 00:55:44.280
you know, and do all the things
you do with photography. So he

720
00:55:44.280 --> 00:55:48.090
said, there's a conference in
Florida, can I go to it? You

721
00:55:48.090 --> 00:55:50.520
know, I didn't ask Dave Crandall
if he was okay. So I said, Sure.

722
00:55:50.520 --> 00:55:53.490
And I said, but the last few
graphs you make anyone

723
00:55:53.490 --> 00:55:57.900
interested, please call Mike
Campbell. So Andy goes and gives

724
00:55:57.900 --> 00:56:02.280
a talk says it went great. A
week later, Bill Brinkman, Bob

725
00:56:02.280 --> 00:56:05.610
dine of dimes, and recruitment,
called me up said this looks

726
00:56:05.610 --> 00:56:08.550
pretty interesting. And so that
was being a deal, easy

727
00:56:08.550 --> 00:56:13.950
lithography. So and now, a
billion transistors in this, he

728
00:56:13.950 --> 00:56:17.310
is the lithography. So the ISIS
of the laser fusion program

729
00:56:17.340 --> 00:56:20.280
invented the UV lithography. And
as I was like, remind people

730
00:56:20.280 --> 00:56:23.460
that it was not just a
diagnostic, it was actually a

731
00:56:23.460 --> 00:56:28.470
spin off technology. Now that
Joe talked about Nova, so we

732
00:56:28.470 --> 00:56:32.880
were at that time, Nova was run
by a different organization than

733
00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:35.610
the experiments program. And
we're having lots of problems

734
00:56:35.610 --> 00:56:40.200
with Nova. And so I went to John
Emmett and said, Well, why don't

735
00:56:40.380 --> 00:56:43.230
the experimentalist take over?
No, because we want to get data.

736
00:56:44.010 --> 00:56:48.330
And after a bunch of arguments,
you said yes. And then I put Joe

737
00:56:48.330 --> 00:56:54.840
Kilkenny in charge. And I got a
call from the engineers. They

738
00:56:54.870 --> 00:56:58.350
took me into the conference room
and 381 Close the door, and I

739
00:56:58.350 --> 00:56:59.490
thought they were going to kill
me.

740
00:57:00.870 --> 00:57:05.490
No, it was not we Oh, Joe just
wants bubble tape and bubble gum

741
00:57:05.490 --> 00:57:09.570
that challenge want to make
things work. And of course, the

742
00:57:09.570 --> 00:57:12.780
rest is history. Joe did a great
job, Nova, we did precision

743
00:57:12.780 --> 00:57:16.260
Nova, the first power balance,
the first pulse shaping was done

744
00:57:16.260 --> 00:57:20.340
on Nova and all the diagnostics
and the technical contract and

745
00:57:20.340 --> 00:57:25.020
the ANOVA. One from 200 shots a
year, a shot a day used to keep

746
00:57:25.020 --> 00:57:26.940
that this is why that was the
end of that was what people

747
00:57:26.940 --> 00:57:33.390
didn't say 1400 with axes with
no increased costs, because Jo

748
00:57:33.420 --> 00:57:36.360
Jo worked with the technicians
and the engineers to make the

749
00:57:36.360 --> 00:57:41.040
machine much more user friendly,
and actually much more

750
00:57:41.100 --> 00:57:44.010
efficient. So just so Jojo,
there's a lot of credit for

751
00:57:44.010 --> 00:57:47.520
that. And it was a again, I
still remember the engineers,

752
00:57:47.820 --> 00:57:50.850
they literally were screaming at
me, you can't do that you can't

753
00:57:50.850 --> 00:57:52.770
do this and but at work,

754
00:57:53.550 --> 00:57:55.770
may have pulled the trigger on
that. Because, you know, when

755
00:57:55.770 --> 00:57:59.580
Nova was then shut down, you
know, was quite a distance

756
00:57:59.580 --> 00:58:03.090
before test net was good come
up, you know, so how hard a

757
00:58:03.090 --> 00:58:04.380
decision was that to make?

758
00:58:05.460 --> 00:58:09.840
So what had happened actually,
it goes back to Nova. Because

759
00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:13.230
what happened was, we had no vet
that's where the first X ray

760
00:58:13.230 --> 00:58:17.670
laser was done. And everyone's
attention to terminal program

761
00:58:17.670 --> 00:58:21.570
was focused on doing it's doing
work on no bet. So Nova Nova was

762
00:58:21.630 --> 00:58:25.230
came on mine, it didn't work.
And so we made up this word

763
00:58:25.230 --> 00:58:30.150
precision Nova basically to fix
Nova. And it made an enormous

764
00:58:30.150 --> 00:58:33.450
impression me that you have to
get, you will if you have an

765
00:58:33.450 --> 00:58:35.970
operating facility, people will
not pay attention to the one

766
00:58:35.970 --> 00:58:40.050
being built. And so I made a
decision to shut down Nova.

767
00:58:40.500 --> 00:58:43.110
People weren't happy with it.
For two reasons that was

768
00:58:43.110 --> 00:58:46.530
wondering the other reason was,
Omega was more NIF like the Nova

769
00:58:46.530 --> 00:58:50.880
was no it had, we could put 40
beams into a whole room. We're

770
00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:53.880
no look, I only put 10 beams in
the house was more or less like

771
00:58:53.880 --> 00:58:58.500
and so that was the reason. So
Bob, the I talked to Bob. And

772
00:58:58.530 --> 00:59:03.600
Bob willingly did this and gave
I think a lot of work on getting

773
00:59:03.600 --> 00:59:06.450
NIF eventually to work. The
physics was done here. The

774
00:59:06.450 --> 00:59:08.880
diagnostics were I mean, there
were people Jim can our oils are

775
00:59:08.880 --> 00:59:13.020
out in the field spend time at
the Livermore Sean did. So So

776
00:59:13.560 --> 00:59:18.120
there's those two reasons. And
so lesson learned for any

777
00:59:18.120 --> 00:59:20.880
facility to be built is to make
sure that the people who are

778
00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:24.330
going to use it are involved in
the design construction and

779
00:59:24.360 --> 00:59:27.990
learning how operated. So that
was a reason. And we the other

780
00:59:27.990 --> 00:59:30.270
thing that happened on Nova I
guess we'll talk about it. The

781
00:59:30.270 --> 00:59:32.850
next thing about petawatt that
was also an interesting thing,

782
00:59:32.850 --> 00:59:37.560
which is also very much involved
LOA sounds good. We

783
00:59:37.560 --> 00:59:40.260
have anything from the audience
that one before we wrap up this

784
00:59:40.260 --> 00:59:40.860
session.

785
00:59:42.360 --> 00:59:43.650
Jim can our so

786
00:59:45.180 --> 00:59:53.400
go back to the servers here.
This is when I first met. At the

787
00:59:53.400 --> 01:00:01.590
time, I was working for Lockheed
primarily and I'm going to chase

788
01:00:01.650 --> 01:00:02.610
my boss at the time

789
01:00:06.720 --> 01:00:10.500
to talk about results that they
got back from underground tests.

790
01:00:13.710 --> 01:00:18.480
And he came back to Palo Alto,
called me into his office. And

791
01:00:18.480 --> 01:00:22.710
he said, The problem with
whether their diagnostics, this

792
01:00:22.710 --> 01:00:31.950
was a multi anode, X ray, multi
cabinet. And he says, I asked

793
01:00:31.950 --> 01:00:36.600
you, me to calibrate at our
coast X ray facility that we had

794
01:00:36.990 --> 01:00:41.250
last year, this was my first
interaction with Mike, and also

795
01:00:41.250 --> 01:00:49.620
my first interaction with with
people like MARC record. And so

796
01:00:49.650 --> 01:00:54.810
I thank you for that. That was a
real eye opener. And that was,

797
01:00:55.320 --> 01:01:00.330
this is like outside of national
laboratory environment more with

798
01:01:00.330 --> 01:01:00.840
the pregnancy.

799
01:01:02.790 --> 01:01:05.520
I remember that your mother's.
And you're right, there were

800
01:01:05.520 --> 01:01:07.290
some real diagnostic problems.

801
01:01:07.710 --> 01:01:12.750
Yeah, we have to what we ended
up finding out was that the ADC

802
01:01:12.750 --> 01:01:16.650
back in the beam was nowhere
near a colony that they thought

803
01:01:16.650 --> 01:01:20.190
it was, Well, turns out there
was a detector issue, not an x

804
01:01:20.190 --> 01:01:26.010
ray laser, because with these
multi cathode X ray dial, they

805
01:01:26.010 --> 01:01:28.830
were capacitively coupled to the
other Catholics.

806
01:01:32.040 --> 01:01:32.910
I see some other gems.

807
01:01:33.720 --> 01:01:37.140
Yeah. You all attention to that,
because a lot of times on about

808
01:01:37.140 --> 01:01:40.950
X ray, the X ray X ray laser
recent faculty seem to have

809
01:01:40.950 --> 01:01:46.770
fallen out of over the years. So
what circumstances do you think

810
01:01:46.770 --> 01:01:48.990
would be needed for the

811
01:01:53.250 --> 01:01:58.110
so I will say we, I easily
looked into X ray lasers for

812
01:01:58.110 --> 01:02:01.380
flying focus a few years ago and
contacted Livermore and had some

813
01:02:01.380 --> 01:02:07.650
interaction. It's a thriving,
amazing field that has gone

814
01:02:07.740 --> 01:02:12.750
essentially have oscillators in
general, much like a laser that

815
01:02:12.750 --> 01:02:17.130
we're aware of, at a different
scale than what was being done

816
01:02:17.130 --> 01:02:21.900
back then. I was shocked at how
sophisticated was and it

817
01:02:21.960 --> 01:02:25.650
immediately chased us from the
field realizing the bar to get

818
01:02:25.650 --> 01:02:29.280
to that level. And what we
wanted to do was was was far

819
01:02:29.280 --> 01:02:32.910
exceeding that, but but I you
know, it's still around. I don't

820
01:02:32.910 --> 01:02:38.520
know if someone wants to talk to
that more specifically. Welcome.

821
01:02:40.890 --> 01:02:41.550
mentioning him

822
01:02:45.510 --> 01:02:49.200
several elements that describe
the acre labor program, the

823
01:02:49.200 --> 01:02:55.860
competing, right, yeah, three
major phases. The UK and Spanish

824
01:02:55.860 --> 01:03:02.100
team. I don't know, you know,
besides competing with the likes

825
01:03:02.100 --> 01:03:08.160
of collaboration is happening at
the same time. That Atos is

826
01:03:08.160 --> 01:03:13.440
motivated when the lava was shut
down. A lot of the components

827
01:03:13.470 --> 01:03:20.460
were distributed to the
influential community. And I

828
01:03:20.460 --> 01:03:23.550
actually benefit from that kind
of innovation, right? That's

829
01:03:23.550 --> 01:03:27.030
kind of the follow up discussion
on the pedal our laser high

830
01:03:27.030 --> 01:03:31.590
intensity lasers, you know, the
world. My team took a little bit

831
01:03:31.620 --> 01:03:35.310
about that competing, but also
collaboration.

832
01:03:36.210 --> 01:03:42.150
So when Nova shut down, I wanted
to send basically who would who

833
01:03:42.150 --> 01:03:45.660
want to know the price. You
know, they could be able to just

834
01:03:45.660 --> 01:03:48.240
creatively just have to later
just go into a warehouse or be

835
01:03:48.240 --> 01:03:52.890
destroyed. So work with DOE and
south so they could be sent to

836
01:03:52.890 --> 01:03:58.440
Germany, other places. And then
when Vemma was done, we made the

837
01:03:58.440 --> 01:04:02.670
deal to send it to San Diego.
Cassandra's argument that was if

838
01:04:02.670 --> 01:04:07.800
you looked at and this was Joe's
working on okay? What's

839
01:04:07.800 --> 01:04:11.070
backlighting? Nova did a lot of
radiography with the 10 beams,

840
01:04:11.070 --> 01:04:13.500
we have to be able to to make
what to do it react and Sandy

841
01:04:13.500 --> 01:04:17.010
had nothing, they had no
radiographic source. So Howard

842
01:04:17.010 --> 01:04:21.360
Powell and Joe and I talked
about it and sent it down to

843
01:04:22.590 --> 01:04:25.710
Sandia. And so it's been a major
tool for them, you know, in lots

844
01:04:25.710 --> 01:04:29.580
of different ways. But the thing
about the X ray laser, what

845
01:04:29.580 --> 01:04:34.110
happened? I think, as you know,
first Star Wars went away. And

846
01:04:34.110 --> 01:04:38.520
so the interest of the weapons
program and that dissipated

847
01:04:39.570 --> 01:04:44.070
exhales came along and that
really changed on suddenly we

848
01:04:44.070 --> 01:04:48.510
had an extra laser it was very
expensive, of course, but you

849
01:04:48.510 --> 01:04:51.330
know, that that that sort of
diminished the role of that with

850
01:04:51.330 --> 01:04:55.380
lasers. But the I still think
that they are very interesting

851
01:04:55.380 --> 01:04:58.380
probes. You know, I would like
to see more X ray lasers being

852
01:04:58.380 --> 01:05:01.980
used in our in our probe. Am I
actually we did on the on Nova

853
01:05:01.980 --> 01:05:05.100
we did interferometry with X ray
lasers, we actually use it as a

854
01:05:05.100 --> 01:05:07.980
diagnostic tool. I would like to
I think that needs to be

855
01:05:07.980 --> 01:05:11.220
relooked at because it can probe
higher density plasmas. I mean,

856
01:05:11.220 --> 01:05:14.580
Dustin is on wonderful Thompson
scattering and such holism. And

857
01:05:14.850 --> 01:05:17.160
how far you can from the probe
is limited by the wavelength of

858
01:05:17.160 --> 01:05:18.930
light, you're doing the
gradients and things like that.

859
01:05:18.930 --> 01:05:22.140
So I think it'd be something
that is, as we look forward to

860
01:05:22.170 --> 01:05:24.840
it was Chris annual report is
that there's an opportunity, I

861
01:05:24.840 --> 01:05:28.410
think, to read look at that for
as a as a diagnostic probe.

862
01:05:28.980 --> 01:05:32.610
The X ray lasers may come back
in the next session as well, in

863
01:05:32.610 --> 01:05:35.850
that, you know, I think part of
what also flowed that program

864
01:05:35.850 --> 01:05:40.530
down was the science stockpile
stewardship program, as the end

865
01:05:40.530 --> 01:05:43.530
of underground testing, because
that was clearly some of the big

866
01:05:43.530 --> 01:05:44.940
tests that were going on at the
end.

867
01:05:45.300 --> 01:05:47.760
I want to point out something
from the government side, Mike

868
01:05:47.760 --> 01:05:53.820
can come in and I hope in 1990,
Jim Watkins had a fusion Policy

869
01:05:53.820 --> 01:05:57.180
Advisory Committee is where I
met Bob sprawl and Arthur

870
01:05:57.180 --> 01:06:02.190
Kerman, for example. And,
frankly, that we're still

871
01:06:02.190 --> 01:06:08.160
operating under that, that
policy. And it had a great

872
01:06:08.160 --> 01:06:11.580
influence. It was, it was that
same time that the National

873
01:06:11.580 --> 01:06:15.750
Academy was looking at LM F and
suggesting each did something

874
01:06:15.750 --> 01:06:24.600
like Neff. And we fried Eric
storm and Bama curry said we

875
01:06:25.800 --> 01:06:29.040
something to the effect, we
can't ignite we can

876
01:06:33.060 --> 01:06:34.260
read but put

877
01:06:34.260 --> 01:06:42.210
$2,000 and $2 billion will lead
something. Do you have any

878
01:06:42.210 --> 01:06:45.060
recollections about fusion
Policy Advisory Committee and

879
01:06:45.060 --> 01:06:48.150
how how it affected things?
Yeah, well,

880
01:06:48.150 --> 01:06:51.420
it was actually it was a very
useful because it was you know,

881
01:06:51.420 --> 01:06:56.700
it's sort of met fairly
regularly. Right? Yeah. And, and

882
01:06:56.700 --> 01:06:58.920
it's a really good feel to have
people like Marshall Rosenbluth

883
01:06:58.920 --> 01:06:59.820
on it, Marshall made

884
01:06:59.820 --> 01:07:03.540
a great cartoon, you made a
great cartoon of Marshall. And

885
01:07:03.570 --> 01:07:04.680
the things he said,

886
01:07:06.540 --> 01:07:10.290
Steve Koonin not at Marshall, do
lots of good people. And so it

887
01:07:10.290 --> 01:07:12.840
made the program more
transparent. And actually, the

888
01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:14.970
reason why we wrote the
technical contract, we had a

889
01:07:14.970 --> 01:07:17.430
meeting in Los Alamos with the
National Academy of Sciences,

890
01:07:18.000 --> 01:07:21.960
and they meet irregularly for
things, they wouldn't understand

891
01:07:21.960 --> 01:07:28.140
anything on ICF. And then most
of the talks were rehashing was

892
01:07:28.170 --> 01:07:31.590
reminding them what they heard
before. And there was a way of

893
01:07:31.590 --> 01:07:35.340
judging progress. And so I
remember Joe and I are Los

894
01:07:35.340 --> 01:07:38.160
Alamos walk by so we have to
write the textbook and we have

895
01:07:38.160 --> 01:07:41.040
to write a program plan that
everyone agrees to that they can

896
01:07:41.040 --> 01:07:44.160
see the progress in the field.
And so that's that was the

897
01:07:44.160 --> 01:07:47.010
motivation. And then what
happened is, I wrote with lots

898
01:07:47.010 --> 01:07:50.220
of input on what to credit for,
but everyone read to it. Even

899
01:07:50.220 --> 01:07:53.100
Boehner agreed if you guys do
this, then you've done what you

900
01:07:53.100 --> 01:07:56.400
can on Nova for Neff. So
everyone, the quarry everyone,

901
01:07:56.430 --> 01:07:59.130
all the program leaders had to
agree to it. And they all did.

902
01:07:59.430 --> 01:08:03.720
And that's what we that's what
was that was the program of Nova

903
01:08:03.720 --> 01:08:06.030
on ICF, in addition to the
weapons program,

904
01:08:06.090 --> 01:08:10.560
and by the way, Marshall slider
named the National Ignition

905
01:08:10.560 --> 01:08:12.240
Facility at that time, no, I

906
01:08:12.240 --> 01:08:14.190
didn't. I didn't like it. But he
does.

907
01:08:15.300 --> 01:08:20.130
Remember sitting in his office
and saying, you know, the fusion

908
01:08:20.130 --> 01:08:25.050
energy program tries to deny
that it had certain goals or

909
01:08:25.050 --> 01:08:28.380
certain and that's it. This is
for admission, so why don't we

910
01:08:28.380 --> 01:08:31.950
just call it that. And so it's
some degree, it's Marshalls

911
01:08:31.950 --> 01:08:34.950
fault that I helped him Yeah.
And I never liked it because

912
01:08:34.950 --> 01:08:37.440
either you guys be bought or
wanted to change it to the

913
01:08:37.440 --> 01:08:39.240
national illumination facility.

914
01:08:40.800 --> 01:08:43.260
So if I wanted to call it like
supernova or something, you

915
01:08:43.260 --> 01:08:45.780
know, because you're all the
Shiva was a multi armed guard,

916
01:08:45.780 --> 01:08:50.790
you have no upgrade. I didn't
want I didn't like it called def

917
01:08:50.910 --> 01:08:54.510
and I was hoping like either
would become just nit, but not

918
01:08:54.510 --> 01:08:57.420
the so called the natural
history sold in parentheses now.

919
01:08:57.990 --> 01:09:02.010
I was hoping to just become
Neff. Man, just like everyone

920
01:09:02.010 --> 01:09:05.580
remembers eaters, international
token, Experimental Reactor.

921
01:09:05.700 --> 01:09:06.840
It's It's Latin for

922
01:09:06.840 --> 01:09:07.380
the way.

923
01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:10.590
I think we had a question back
here with Gary.

924
01:09:10.950 --> 01:09:11.940
And it's a good one.

925
01:09:13.980 --> 01:09:17.130
Things about the X ray lasers
and how that impacted our field.

926
01:09:17.130 --> 01:09:22.230
And there's a lot of great,
great stuff on FBI, but FBI

927
01:09:22.230 --> 01:09:24.990
there's obviously an enormous
program to put funding into

928
01:09:24.990 --> 01:09:29.070
everything, especially the
representatives. Is that do you

929
01:09:29.070 --> 01:09:34.590
have any recollection other than
normal lasers take anything from

930
01:09:34.590 --> 01:09:35.910
SDI or

931
01:09:37.470 --> 01:09:42.570
something like that? I didn't I
mean the the it didn't change

932
01:09:42.570 --> 01:09:45.510
the laser Well, I mean directed
energy because you know that

933
01:09:45.540 --> 01:09:48.840
that was already underway. Right
this was a laser was invented

934
01:09:48.840 --> 01:09:51.390
directed energy production and
started actually and on the

935
01:09:51.390 --> 01:09:54.450
Naval Research Lab was very
active because the Navy was

936
01:09:54.480 --> 01:09:58.020
looking for protecting ships. So
they were very active in that so

937
01:09:58.230 --> 01:10:01.200
so what it what it did This is
actually Bob Kraft, he has a

938
01:10:01.200 --> 01:10:06.660
good story about this illusio a
lot of controversy about a deal

939
01:10:06.660 --> 01:10:10.320
about X ray, you know, using a
nuclear weapon to energize an x

940
01:10:10.320 --> 01:10:12.720
ray, I remember talking to tell
her about says, you're going to

941
01:10:12.720 --> 01:10:15.120
convince the Russians, the
Soviets, that this is a

942
01:10:15.150 --> 01:10:18.090
defensive nuclear weapon, not an
offensive nuclear weapon. And

943
01:10:18.090 --> 01:10:21.510
that's nothing that's gonna be a
hard discussion. And what he

944
01:10:21.510 --> 01:10:24.480
said, this is actually true. He
said, the main reason I'm doing

945
01:10:24.480 --> 01:10:28.380
this is that we need new people
in the weapons program. We've

946
01:10:28.380 --> 01:10:32.970
miniaturized at, you know, we
had to know the atomic bomb, the

947
01:10:32.970 --> 01:10:35.670
atomic bomb, thermonuclear
weapons and miniaturization.

948
01:10:36.030 --> 01:10:38.910
We're all done. How am I going
to get people interested in

949
01:10:38.910 --> 01:10:41.640
nuclear weapons and Star Wars,
that was his reason we needed a

950
01:10:41.640 --> 01:10:44.400
third, we need no third
generation nuclear weapons. It

951
01:10:44.400 --> 01:10:46.200
was about bringing people in the
laboratory. That was his

952
01:10:46.200 --> 01:10:49.560
principal, Principal reason this
was very much used to tell that

953
01:10:49.560 --> 01:10:51.630
to victory, stewardship. That's
the whole thing for stewardship.

954
01:10:52.140 --> 01:10:56.160
And so it had that big impact.
Bill Goldstein was hired. This

955
01:10:56.160 --> 01:11:00.240
was Rad Lab Director was
basically to do atomic structure

956
01:11:00.240 --> 01:11:04.650
calculations, we actually laser.
But they'll crop the Northeast

957
01:11:04.650 --> 01:11:09.120
on the phone. But Bill went to
right after we demonstrated and

958
01:11:09.120 --> 01:11:14.820
published the laboratory X ray
laser. Jill went to Russia. And

959
01:11:14.850 --> 01:11:18.210
this is before the paper had
been come out. But it had been

960
01:11:18.210 --> 01:11:22.890
except for publication. And Bill
said that we have made an x ray

961
01:11:22.890 --> 01:11:26.370
laser. And he said the Russians
were surprised. And it had a big

962
01:11:26.370 --> 01:11:29.190
impact on their view of Star
Wars that it was possible to

963
01:11:29.190 --> 01:11:32.130
make it work. I mean, Dolan does
a wonderful story about that.

964
01:11:33.030 --> 01:11:36.000
They're in a of course, we're
bragging about it. So it did

965
01:11:36.000 --> 01:11:40.770
have an impact in that sense.
But it was it was one of very

966
01:11:42.060 --> 01:11:44.640
wonderful times it was really
exciting when it worked. I mean,

967
01:11:45.420 --> 01:11:49.080
everyone and all it actually was
a motivator for Novo one of the

968
01:11:49.080 --> 01:11:52.620
reasons no that gave as many
shots we added a second target

969
01:11:52.620 --> 01:11:57.150
chamber to continue X ray laser
recent research. And so that was

970
01:11:57.300 --> 01:11:59.700
so one of the reasons we got all
these shots was I've had to

971
01:11:59.700 --> 01:12:03.900
target temperature them to
attend beam and Jeff if you want

972
01:12:03.900 --> 01:12:03.990
to

973
01:12:04.020 --> 01:12:07.560
Yeah, there was there was
another I don't know Mike, were

974
01:12:07.560 --> 01:12:12.360
involved in it. But also I saw
was, was out living also had a

975
01:12:12.360 --> 01:12:16.410
program with the accelerated the
ATA didn't test accelerator,

976
01:12:16.800 --> 01:12:21.810
where we were going to build a
FTL but micron incredible 50

977
01:12:21.810 --> 01:12:26.160
gigawatt average power. It was
gotten done once imagination,

978
01:12:26.850 --> 01:12:32.820
and it was a Brigadoon moment, I
would call it where the isotope

979
01:12:32.820 --> 01:12:39.240
separation technology folks work
with the ICF folks in 1985. And

980
01:12:39.240 --> 01:12:42.330
we actually built a teamwork
between the two that didn't

981
01:12:42.330 --> 01:12:45.900
exist, even though even leisure
programs didn't really exist

982
01:12:45.900 --> 01:12:49.560
between the two. And that last
that was stick Briggs ran that

983
01:12:49.710 --> 01:12:56.640
the exercise we did. And that's
how I got to know a lot of the

984
01:12:56.640 --> 01:13:00.810
laser, the John Han Citron
channel really know them quite

985
01:13:00.810 --> 01:13:05.850
well, that how would Pauwels in
the ICF program. So it was a

986
01:13:05.850 --> 01:13:11.190
team building exercise in the
mid 80s. And that was a large

987
01:13:11.190 --> 01:13:16.530
focus of laser programs at the
time, because not only was ICF

988
01:13:17.190 --> 01:13:20.610
program but we wanted to build
free electron lasers back then

989
01:13:20.670 --> 01:13:21.210
also

990
01:13:22.710 --> 01:13:26.340
build I mean, if you look across
this spectrum of directed

991
01:13:26.340 --> 01:13:30.060
energy, so hyper microwaves,
there was massive work going on

992
01:13:30.660 --> 01:13:34.920
to do STR EO and how to use
these a lot my paper microwaves,

993
01:13:35.280 --> 01:13:38.430
high rep rate, pulse power or
solid state switching magnetic.

994
01:13:39.510 --> 01:13:43.560
Actually, my cousin is a nuclear
physicist that the European

995
01:13:43.560 --> 01:13:47.190
atomic energies, you can
research facilities in houses.

996
01:13:47.910 --> 01:13:52.230
And the European Atomic Energy
Authority had a workshop during

997
01:13:52.260 --> 01:13:57.180
FDA all for this specific
purpose of figuring out where

998
01:13:57.180 --> 01:14:00.600
will this take American
technology? And what do we have

999
01:14:00.600 --> 01:14:04.290
to do to catch up so even
independent X ray laser, it was

1000
01:14:04.890 --> 01:14:09.540
a huge technology push across
many fronts. And the downside

1001
01:14:09.540 --> 01:14:12.420
was what it did, it also
amalgamated a number of programs

1002
01:14:12.420 --> 01:14:15.600
that had been ongoing for a long
time. And then when Star Wars

1003
01:14:15.600 --> 01:14:19.020
died, I took a few of them down
with him as well, especially on

1004
01:14:19.020 --> 01:14:23.850
electron beams and but the dark
accelerator at Lasala was just

1005
01:14:24.390 --> 01:14:28.890
like, you know, that electron
beam was the dream of many

1006
01:14:28.890 --> 01:14:31.950
people in high intensity
electron beams during Star Wars,

1007
01:14:32.100 --> 01:14:35.280
you know, 1.6 kilograms for
you're gonna look like 20 Mega

1008
01:14:35.280 --> 01:14:35.640
bolts.

1009
01:14:35.700 --> 01:14:41.130
You're gonna fly that. Yeah, but
the ATA construct was its new

1010
01:14:41.130 --> 01:14:46.200
ground based system uplink and,
and sent down and so when we

1011
01:14:46.200 --> 01:14:51.060
exercise a lot of skills, high
power skills, nonlinear

1012
01:14:51.060 --> 01:14:55.290
propagation videos, and build
teams with a Brigadoon moment

1013
01:14:55.290 --> 01:15:00.120
which only lasted for that. One
summer, when we worked on It's

1014
01:15:01.290 --> 01:15:04.740
helpful for me when I became the
project manager. Well, one of

1015
01:15:04.740 --> 01:15:09.990
the ICF because I had built up
relationships with people over

1016
01:15:09.990 --> 01:15:13.350
in the ICF program,
technologists over there.

1017
01:15:14.100 --> 01:15:19.020
And it's actually one of you
know, some of the ivy startups

1018
01:15:19.020 --> 01:15:21.930
will go into details but are
actually touching back into some

1019
01:15:21.930 --> 01:15:25.080
of the concepts that were
developed during in Star Wars,

1020
01:15:25.320 --> 01:15:28.320
or some of the scaling that may
be required for distribution

1021
01:15:28.320 --> 01:15:31.500
energy as well. Great,

1022
01:15:31.530 --> 01:15:34.440
thank you very much for a
wonderful session. The comments

1023
01:15:34.440 --> 01:15:38.730
were great and the Phillies were
really fun to hear. At 1230

1024
01:15:38.730 --> 01:15:42.360
we're going to reconvene so
after lunch and start the

1025
01:15:42.360 --> 01:15:47.100
session on stockpile stewardship
petawatt and the launch of the

1026
01:15:47.100 --> 01:15:52.020
national mission facility,
whereas Mike and John Zuko will

1027
01:15:52.020 --> 01:15:56.400
leave that session. So for those
of us here, there's lunch

1028
01:15:56.430 --> 01:16:00.720
outside, and so you can bring it
back in and have lunch and we'll

1029
01:16:00.720 --> 01:16:02.070
meet in about 45 minutes.