WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:20.850 Hey we're not having this for you to be good Good 2 00:00:24.990 --> 00:00:35.850 morning. I mean you Jeff So welcome everybody. This is gonna 3 00:00:35.850 --> 00:00:41.250 be a fun day for we get to do two things. So celebrate Mike's 4 00:00:41.250 --> 00:00:44.940 contributions to LLE and the whole of this national program. 5 00:00:45.390 --> 00:00:48.120 But we failed to do that great opportunity, especially for a 6 00:00:48.120 --> 00:00:53.130 lot of our staff to actually hear the whole history of the 7 00:00:53.130 --> 00:00:58.980 ICF program. So from the outset to where we are today. And since 8 00:00:58.980 --> 00:01:03.750 Mike has been deeply involved pretty much all the way through 9 00:01:03.750 --> 00:01:06.450 that we thought this was also a great opportunity then to just 10 00:01:06.570 --> 00:01:09.450 set the framework to actually celebrate all the other 11 00:01:09.450 --> 00:01:11.700 contributions that make so we're going to work through a few 12 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:14.490 topical areas we'll have a session share for each one, 13 00:01:14.580 --> 00:01:17.670 starting from the early days all the way up to the to the 14 00:01:17.670 --> 00:01:22.050 present, but then we'll also get a chance to hear some work we'll 15 00:01:22.050 --> 00:01:24.090 hear from wait all the way through it but we'll give him a 16 00:01:24.090 --> 00:01:26.700 chance to speak we'll also make some presentations and things so 17 00:01:26.700 --> 00:01:33.090 it's gonna be a fun day once you to appreciate thank Mike for all 18 00:01:33.090 --> 00:01:36.840 his service and the fact he came back to do this with us also 19 00:01:36.870 --> 00:01:43.170 Corinne for lending us Mike for all those years later the whole 20 00:01:43.170 --> 00:01:49.290 program mate for 44 years so so thank you and we've got some 21 00:01:49.290 --> 00:01:52.440 great people on line they kind of should be here in a minute 22 00:01:52.440 --> 00:01:56.400 he's here in person Jeff Hayes nurse here with the demons you 23 00:01:56.400 --> 00:01:59.610 have in LA Keith Matson online for hope their victory slit Ryan 24 00:01:59.610 --> 00:02:03.150 for when the session so so this is gonna be a sort of a packed 25 00:02:03.150 --> 00:02:08.010 agenda should be interesting. Session chairs will start off to 26 00:02:08.010 --> 00:02:11.100 the popular will pregnancy conversation with the panelists 27 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:14.400 Michael jumped in. But you know, at this time if you feel there's 28 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:16.920 a question you want to ask, you know, just raise your hand and 29 00:02:16.920 --> 00:02:19.740 for those on Zoom we'll try to monitor it and make you know so 30 00:02:19.740 --> 00:02:22.380 raise your user raise hand feature and will allow you to 31 00:02:22.650 --> 00:02:31.500 answer ask questions as it needs to be so actually joined to do 32 00:02:31.500 --> 00:02:33.750 some other introductions really a 33 00:02:33.750 --> 00:02:35.760 chat up with a chat question 34 00:02:48.360 --> 00:02:51.630 that's just how I see it. We just We just wanted 35 00:02:51.630 --> 00:02:53.190 to be able to see the share screen 36 00:02:57.420 --> 00:02:58.710 totally appropriate can anybody 37 00:02:59.250 --> 00:02:59.730 yeah 38 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:12.240 and the watch of tight keeps Indian given Ellie for being on 39 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:17.550 virtually because that's two hours early the nest of their 40 00:03:17.580 --> 00:03:18.420 649 41 00:03:22.230 --> 00:03:25.350 Remember, Keith is a farmer so he's up at five and he's in bed 42 00:03:25.350 --> 00:03:26.040 by six 43 00:03:32.610 --> 00:03:34.110 don't get to respond to that when he's 44 00:03:38.190 --> 00:03:44.580 it's all true. Sometimes I make it till 7pm. 45 00:03:48.900 --> 00:03:52.590 Although Yeah, Keith was always wake up before six in the 46 00:03:52.590 --> 00:03:57.510 morning, usually at six at night and seven at night. So Mike was 47 00:03:57.690 --> 00:03:58.290 incorrect. 48 00:03:59.040 --> 00:04:00.360 Then you go to bed around seven. 49 00:04:03.210 --> 00:04:06.390 All right, thankfully, we've got limited time. So join to get 50 00:04:06.390 --> 00:04:07.980 started a little bit early. Yeah. 51 00:04:08.880 --> 00:04:12.840 Really. So welcome, everyone. I hope everyone out on Zoom can 52 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:17.610 hear us we're projecting well. My name is Shawn Reagan. So I'm 53 00:04:17.610 --> 00:04:20.910 going to moderate this first session on the early years from 54 00:04:20.910 --> 00:04:28.350 the 1970s and 1980s. And we have four panelists with a lot of 55 00:04:28.350 --> 00:04:32.160 knowledge of this time. We have John Torres, who retired in the 56 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:34.860 last few years from the laboratory for Laser Energetics. 57 00:04:35.400 --> 00:04:42.510 We have Keith Matt, who's he's online. And we have Damon do 58 00:04:42.510 --> 00:04:48.750 Vannelli. He's from Los Alamos. He's online. They told he was on 59 00:04:48.750 --> 00:04:53.640 earlier. We have our very own Mike Campbell here in person 60 00:04:53.640 --> 00:04:59.550 attendance. So why don't we just go around the panelists and you 61 00:04:59.550 --> 00:05:03.030 can say about, you know, what was your role in it in the early 62 00:05:03.030 --> 00:05:05.910 years? So John, let's start with you. 63 00:05:06.690 --> 00:05:12.690 Well, I guess the beginning was really Planck and Einstein. But 64 00:05:12.750 --> 00:05:19.470 after that, and after the war, and the nuclear, the insurance 65 00:05:20.010 --> 00:05:20.490 weapons 66 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:28.710 became a objective for a number of people and a number of 67 00:05:31.110 --> 00:05:37.020 small a nuclear explosive could be developed. And that was 68 00:05:37.020 --> 00:05:43.410 really the beginning of ICF. A very good account of that is 69 00:05:43.440 --> 00:05:48.390 doing in John Nichols own history, which appeared in a 70 00:05:49.260 --> 00:05:55.440 compendium of histories by vilardi. Remember that 1007. So 71 00:05:55.440 --> 00:06:00.480 if anybody wants to explore that, I think they should look 72 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:05.310 at that. But basically, according to John he's he 73 00:06:05.310 --> 00:06:10.980 developed the idea of a micro fusion explosion around 1950. 74 00:06:11.850 --> 00:06:15.780 And at that time, of course, there were no lasers on the 75 00:06:15.780 --> 00:06:25.950 advent of the laser, my name is ruby laser invention. The groups 76 00:06:25.980 --> 00:06:31.710 around the world and especially at Livermore put a lot of effort 77 00:06:31.710 --> 00:06:34.950 into trying to understand how they could use this BrightSource 78 00:06:35.700 --> 00:06:43.530 to initiate a nuclear explosion a number of things happen that 79 00:06:43.530 --> 00:07:10.890 are account that retail. More Martians landed tight knuckles 80 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:18.930 and get her at Livermore did independent calculations of how 81 00:07:18.930 --> 00:07:23.460 small and explosive you could have I think the numbers get 82 00:07:23.460 --> 00:07:27.240 down to as low as a productivity drill the enough to get 83 00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:33.930 ignition. Under the right conditions. John was focusing 84 00:07:33.930 --> 00:07:37.380 primarily on the radiation drive in his opinion, there was the 85 00:07:37.380 --> 00:07:41.550 only way we really could get this to work for for reasons 86 00:07:41.550 --> 00:07:51.180 that he expands and in his notes. But there are a lot of 87 00:07:51.210 --> 00:07:55.200 new players that came into the field, the French, the Germans, 88 00:07:55.560 --> 00:08:02.280 the British to some extent, and in the US outside labs, living 89 00:08:02.280 --> 00:08:08.490 more or less homos. Rochester became a major player, around 90 00:08:08.490 --> 00:08:14.580 1970. Before that time around 1965 fella by the name of Moshe 91 00:08:14.580 --> 00:08:23.370 lumen came to Rochester from my way of Cornell who was a sub 92 00:08:23.370 --> 00:08:28.620 writer and an aeronautical engineer, basically. And he 93 00:08:28.620 --> 00:08:33.060 became fascinated by a demonstration that one of the 94 00:08:33.060 --> 00:08:38.160 professors at the optic, arranged for him he had they 95 00:08:38.190 --> 00:08:42.330 will be laser that would, was powerful enough, unfocused, and 96 00:08:42.330 --> 00:08:51.240 Eric Korean sparks. And Moshe saw this in 1960. And suddenly, 97 00:08:51.240 --> 00:08:57.570 this might be a way to get fusion to work. So he actually 98 00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:02.700 became a part of a small group, which included Dawson, John 99 00:09:02.700 --> 00:09:13.890 Dawson, Moshe Bruckner, San Diego, who would get together 100 00:09:13.890 --> 00:09:17.850 with John knuckles, at Livermore, and talk about some 101 00:09:17.850 --> 00:09:22.440 of the classified aspects of this thing. At that time. The 102 00:09:22.440 --> 00:09:25.560 field is almost totally class time. So the only thing that 103 00:09:25.590 --> 00:09:30.840 gets discussed in the open and places like here are solid 104 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:38.490 pellets that were irradiated by laser light. And as you all 105 00:09:38.490 --> 00:09:45.240 know, that's pretty hard to get ignition that way. Anyways, on 106 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:51.780 the basis of those discussions, and what Moshe has a vision, he 107 00:09:51.780 --> 00:09:57.570 put together a small group of people in the lab. I was one of 108 00:09:57.570 --> 00:10:02.970 the early graduate students who was working on this who worked 109 00:10:02.970 --> 00:10:07.860 with a number of different small lasers, there was an eclectic 110 00:10:07.860 --> 00:10:13.560 collection of devices in the original lab that were doing 111 00:10:13.560 --> 00:10:18.780 laser matter interaction, one device was used to generate a 112 00:10:18.780 --> 00:10:22.740 plasma and cyanide thyroidal magnetic device. So that was 113 00:10:22.740 --> 00:10:23.790 kind of the early 114 00:10:25.050 --> 00:10:33.150 predecessor of that stuff. And when enough, interest became, 115 00:10:33.810 --> 00:10:37.680 reached the critical mass and he was he was able to sell this to 116 00:10:37.800 --> 00:10:45.210 private industry to support a an independent laser fusion effort 117 00:10:45.210 --> 00:10:52.230 at Rochester. And it had sponsors, people like GE, Exxon, 118 00:10:52.740 --> 00:10:59.400 Standard Oil of Ohio, and a number of other corporates that 119 00:10:59.760 --> 00:11:04.680 one of the window into nuclear and specifically to Fusion 120 00:11:05.670 --> 00:11:09.480 without spending a lot of money. And they found that university a 121 00:11:09.990 --> 00:11:17.160 good place to do that. The best of that, we put together a 122 00:11:17.160 --> 00:11:23.520 couple of very early lasers around 1972. At that time, we 123 00:11:23.520 --> 00:11:27.870 had already initiated our contacts with Livermore, and 124 00:11:27.870 --> 00:11:32.910 that's going to be a fairly productive one. Although at 125 00:11:32.910 --> 00:11:40.680 times kind of competitive. The, the Livermore laser at that 126 00:11:40.680 --> 00:11:48.030 time, around 1970 volumes, was called a long path later. If you 127 00:11:48.150 --> 00:11:52.710 if anybody remembers that Milton railroad cars that were some 128 00:11:54.240 --> 00:12:03.630 distance between them. It was a new domain class. So that was 129 00:12:03.750 --> 00:12:07.740 the very early experience a little more until John M is 130 00:12:08.550 --> 00:12:11.130 concerned to speak up just a little bit or the back of the 131 00:12:11.130 --> 00:12:11.310 room. 132 00:12:12.450 --> 00:12:18.690 There was the long pass lasted until 1972, at a time when 133 00:12:19.170 --> 00:12:20.520 the operating when I was doing 134 00:12:24.030 --> 00:12:29.610 that play was kind of a an exposure for many of us hadn't 135 00:12:29.610 --> 00:12:36.780 seen anything like this before. Me came in at that point, then, 136 00:12:37.500 --> 00:12:42.630 we all know what happened after that big burst of activity at 137 00:12:42.630 --> 00:12:49.200 Livermore, at Rochester, the focus became to build a 25 138 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:56.280 kilojoule or 10 Philidor system kind of out of the question. And 139 00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:02.790 we decided to focus our attention on a 24 being maybe 140 00:13:02.790 --> 00:13:08.130 medium glasses can be used for direct drive experiments. And to 141 00:13:08.130 --> 00:13:15.900 sell IrDA was the theory of that time on this mission, and more 142 00:13:15.900 --> 00:13:20.130 importantly, the seller, laboratory future partners. And 143 00:13:20.130 --> 00:13:25.680 that's and that was easy. We spent a lot of time on planes 144 00:13:25.680 --> 00:13:29.700 between here Livermore and Washington basically trying to 145 00:13:29.730 --> 00:13:38.070 justify that and try to beat back a number of suggestions for 146 00:13:38.070 --> 00:13:43.020 improvements from the little more time, like build, why don't 147 00:13:43.020 --> 00:13:47.730 you build a new thing instead of a neodymium glass laser, why not 148 00:13:47.730 --> 00:13:53.010 an iodine laser with two beams which could be split into as 149 00:13:53.010 --> 00:13:58.050 many means as you want to do direct drive. So it became 150 00:13:58.890 --> 00:14:06.360 pretty apparent that those kinds of distraction act and finally 151 00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:16.710 after many years of debate, talking in 1975, approval was 152 00:14:16.740 --> 00:14:25.530 given to proceed with the first Omega laser, which had to be 153 00:14:25.530 --> 00:14:29.340 done in three stages, basically in prototype stage, which was 154 00:14:29.340 --> 00:14:36.300 GDL 6016 stage, which was the first real parts of omega, and 155 00:14:36.300 --> 00:14:41.790 then a 24. Beans, celery, our partner and our engineering 156 00:14:41.790 --> 00:14:45.960 partner at that time was released my codec, we brought in 157 00:14:46.020 --> 00:14:50.790 codec through their government systems group to do the bulk of 158 00:14:50.790 --> 00:14:55.050 the engineering work on a facility. So they were actually 159 00:14:55.050 --> 00:15:01.140 living in house. They had their people who were kind of mixed in 160 00:15:01.140 --> 00:15:07.710 with our people you can put like the one theme under Jay, who was 161 00:15:07.710 --> 00:15:17.400 the project manager for that, for that effort? For how many 162 00:15:17.400 --> 00:15:18.360 people? How did you? 163 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:21.390 How did you make the connection? 164 00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:26.580 Oh, well, it was, it was pretty easy with Kodak because they 165 00:15:26.580 --> 00:15:30.750 were actually providing hardware, from their surplus 166 00:15:31.350 --> 00:15:37.380 equipment to us for the original lasers that we actually built. 167 00:15:38.580 --> 00:15:46.230 Back in 1970. They had a couple of lasers they were working on 168 00:15:46.230 --> 00:15:50.610 at that time, which would be used for medical applications. 169 00:15:51.240 --> 00:15:55.020 And like, there was many things that corrected, they would bring 170 00:15:55.020 --> 00:15:59.370 it up to a beautiful device and then decided wasn't profitable 171 00:15:59.370 --> 00:16:03.870 enough for many candidates. And here I have some hardware. So we 172 00:16:03.870 --> 00:16:08.610 wound up with capacitors, or amplifier heads, all kinds of 173 00:16:08.850 --> 00:16:14.550 give me some huge, and those are our toys that we use to get 174 00:16:14.550 --> 00:16:22.350 experience on buildings. And finally, when the time came for 175 00:16:22.470 --> 00:16:27.540 some real engineering, we the university and Houston pretty 176 00:16:27.540 --> 00:16:33.300 well connected. That that became very natural. John, 177 00:16:33.330 --> 00:16:36.930 what point is the private funding? Standard Oil an 178 00:16:36.930 --> 00:16:37.770 excellent Yeah, that 179 00:16:37.800 --> 00:16:44.040 that lasted? That set lasted through 1981 81? Yeah. And 180 00:16:45.780 --> 00:16:48.810 actually a little bit beyond that. But it started tapering 181 00:16:48.810 --> 00:16:50.190 off around 1981. 182 00:16:50.760 --> 00:16:52.950 There's a question online was the equipment from Kodak 183 00:16:52.950 --> 00:16:53.550 donated? 184 00:16:53.970 --> 00:17:02.010 Yes. And so as we also had some equipment from NRL, I think we 185 00:17:02.010 --> 00:17:05.130 wound up getting a lot of capacitors for both capacitors 186 00:17:05.130 --> 00:17:10.320 from them. But they'll also that hardware has donated the 187 00:17:10.320 --> 00:17:17.070 equipment for the original delta for being system which was 1972. 188 00:17:17.280 --> 00:17:21.990 And that was part of the so called Laser fusion feasibility 189 00:17:21.990 --> 00:17:26.100 project, that would have been fine, privately financed part of 190 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:33.930 fusion. At the same time, there were other private people in 191 00:17:33.930 --> 00:17:40.680 ICF, namely cam as Brooke pair, teamed up with Kip Segal to to 192 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:50.580 build a company in Detroit in an arbor to essentially do ICF. And 193 00:17:50.580 --> 00:17:57.120 that stayed private for a while. But then I started to, to get 194 00:17:57.150 --> 00:18:01.770 funding from DOE. There was an interesting story, which is 195 00:18:01.800 --> 00:18:07.140 counted in the labs 40 year history, which is this volume of 196 00:18:10.170 --> 00:18:18.090 motion had gone to Washington to push a little bit to speak to 197 00:18:18.210 --> 00:18:24.120 testify in one of the committee hearings on the ICF budget. And 198 00:18:24.120 --> 00:18:28.800 this was the first time that the lab would ask for a big pot of 199 00:18:28.800 --> 00:18:35.040 money for omega. So they had listed him as well as concealed 200 00:18:35.340 --> 00:18:40.860 to speak at this hearing. And the committee decided in some 201 00:18:40.860 --> 00:18:52.200 infinite wisdom to put Moshe at the just before just Patrick, he 202 00:18:52.740 --> 00:18:57.900 actually kept Segal. And Moshe was very disappointed, because 203 00:18:57.900 --> 00:19:03.270 he thought that this wouldn't be a bad thing for us basically. 204 00:19:04.470 --> 00:19:10.440 And it turned out a terrible series of events occurred which 205 00:19:10.890 --> 00:19:16.050 at the same time was very painful. Kip got up to give his 206 00:19:16.260 --> 00:19:21.210 money within two minutes he had a stroke and died on the stand. 207 00:19:24.120 --> 00:19:28.740 At which point the motion has already given his testimony and 208 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:37.020 at which point then his was the last one. And there was nothing 209 00:19:37.020 --> 00:19:41.640 else and they they during the meeting and it turned out it's 210 00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:47.430 money. So it was pretty amazing. 211 00:19:48.060 --> 00:19:51.030 Don't look at the interaction with the lab like those the 212 00:19:51.600 --> 00:20:00.600 interaction in those days and from 1975 to 1980 or It was 213 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:08.250 growing in comfort. In the early days, from 19, around 1975, it 214 00:20:08.250 --> 00:20:18.450 was very competitive and rather contentious at times. But once 215 00:20:19.470 --> 00:20:24.390 the system was built and demonstrated, and once the 216 00:20:24.420 --> 00:20:33.360 frequency conversion happened, which was 1979 1980 crashing on 217 00:20:33.360 --> 00:20:38.850 company, I think the credibility of the lab increased in the eyes 218 00:20:39.270 --> 00:20:45.600 of people. So that interaction turned from being a competitive 219 00:20:45.600 --> 00:20:53.100 one to being a cooperative one, far more cooperative. And a lot 220 00:20:53.100 --> 00:20:57.480 of it had to do with the people involved. I know Mike was the 221 00:20:57.540 --> 00:21:02.970 big winner at that time, in the 80s. To further the interaction 222 00:21:02.970 --> 00:21:09.030 between the labs, Jeff and others, or or quite important 223 00:21:09.030 --> 00:21:16.800 and all that. We had very many useful interactions and visits 224 00:21:16.950 --> 00:21:18.420 to Livermore back and forth. 225 00:21:19.379 --> 00:21:24.269 So perhaps we'll get into those in the questions. Let's move on 226 00:21:24.269 --> 00:21:28.889 then with the introductions for the other panelists. So So 227 00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:33.059 Thanks, John. So let's move on to Keith. Keith, you online? 228 00:21:33.810 --> 00:21:41.190 Oh, yes, I am. Good morning, everyone. Let Metamora Thank 229 00:21:41.190 --> 00:21:46.470 you, Mike. When I got this invitation, I complained to 230 00:21:46.470 --> 00:21:51.120 Jean, why is it I fit in the early years, but should not be. 231 00:21:53.340 --> 00:22:00.000 I guess as I listen, saris, I probably do fit into these 232 00:22:00.300 --> 00:22:07.830 years, I came to Sandy in 1974. And Mike, I met Mike shortly 233 00:22:07.830 --> 00:22:11.490 thereafter, probably in the late 70s, let's say at plus or minus 234 00:22:11.670 --> 00:22:19.710 a year or two. And number one, I want to thank Mike for being a 235 00:22:19.710 --> 00:22:25.560 career long friend and advocate and colleague and, and sounding 236 00:22:25.560 --> 00:22:29.550 board and all those things that Mike is to all of us. And it's 237 00:22:29.550 --> 00:22:33.690 been what a pleasure to work with Mike over all these years. 238 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:39.030 The let me make just a couple of comments about Sandy. And then 239 00:22:39.030 --> 00:22:45.600 get back to Mike. You know, in the 70s, Sandia had to efforts 240 00:22:45.600 --> 00:22:49.800 in fusion, I came to Sandia to work on fusion, metal small 241 00:22:49.800 --> 00:22:57.240 laser program. You know, I think there were six lasers of a few 242 00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:01.530 100 joules, a glass laser, and that's the group I hired into. 243 00:23:02.130 --> 00:23:07.140 Parallel to that was a pulse power group, where joy Jerry 244 00:23:07.140 --> 00:23:13.200 Jonas had joined Sandia, I think in 1972. And, and so that that 245 00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:17.070 time they were looking at electron beams, I happened to be 246 00:23:17.100 --> 00:23:24.600 at a at a exchange with a Soviet Academy of Sciences, and the 247 00:23:24.630 --> 00:23:31.050 American Academy of Sciences in Moscow in 1978. When I heard 248 00:23:31.050 --> 00:23:33.810 that, Jerry Jonas had been promoted to be a center 249 00:23:33.810 --> 00:23:37.980 director. I knew at that time that lasers that Sandia would no 250 00:23:37.980 --> 00:23:41.640 longer be a program for fusion and it was all going to be pulse 251 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:47.190 power. So in 1980, or shortly thereafter, I joined the pulse 252 00:23:47.190 --> 00:23:51.180 power group, but not to work on electron or iron beams, but to 253 00:23:51.180 --> 00:23:57.090 work on Z pinches. And I think you may know, the history of 254 00:23:57.090 --> 00:24:04.500 those changes over the subsequent 40 years. But Mike, 255 00:24:04.530 --> 00:24:11.250 very early on. Recall the Livermore presentations, 256 00:24:11.280 --> 00:24:15.420 Livermore has always had outstanding presentations at 257 00:24:15.420 --> 00:24:19.380 conferences, but in the John Emmet era, there was very 258 00:24:19.380 --> 00:24:24.420 rigorous control of quality of the the slides that we're going 259 00:24:24.420 --> 00:24:29.280 to give him at any presentation. And I was at an APS DPP meeting, 260 00:24:30.060 --> 00:24:34.590 where this young scientist got up from Livermore and all of his 261 00:24:34.620 --> 00:24:41.070 slides were hand drawn with words and pictures. I'm thinking 262 00:24:41.070 --> 00:24:45.150 to myself Who is this guy from Livermore that's breaking out of 263 00:24:45.150 --> 00:24:50.220 the mold, very slide presentation. I need to meet 264 00:24:50.220 --> 00:24:56.310 this guy and get to know him. Of course it was Mike. And at that 265 00:24:56.310 --> 00:24:59.820 meeting, I made a point of of getting together with Mike and 266 00:24:59.820 --> 00:25:04.020 talk came to him. And as I mentioned earlier, bottom line 267 00:25:04.020 --> 00:25:09.030 of that. It's been a wonderful career long friendship, of 268 00:25:09.030 --> 00:25:12.510 interacting with Mike in so many different ways, at many 269 00:25:12.510 --> 00:25:16.560 different institutions, and including here at Sandia. The 270 00:25:16.560 --> 00:25:21.750 early those early days in the late 1970s, is when I think Mike 271 00:25:21.750 --> 00:25:25.890 was really working on the infrared catastrophe. And they 272 00:25:25.890 --> 00:25:28.680 will probably hear about that from other people. But, you 273 00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:33.000 know, going from Los Alamos was working on co2 lasers at 10 274 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.890 microns and and Livermore was one micron glass. And, of 275 00:25:37.890 --> 00:25:46.380 course, there were people in France and, and Mike, shorter 276 00:25:46.380 --> 00:25:50.820 pulse, shorter wavelengths. And, Chris, that turned into the path 277 00:25:50.820 --> 00:25:54.930 for the future. So I'm happy to answer questions about details 278 00:25:54.960 --> 00:26:00.780 of polls power at some point, and my experience in those early 279 00:26:00.780 --> 00:26:05.850 days, but one thing I did want to add, John mentioned, that 280 00:26:05.850 --> 00:26:09.720 sort of compendium of articles from some of the founders of the 281 00:26:09.720 --> 00:26:16.200 fusion activities, John Knuckles, and blardy. And I 282 00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:19.920 think, let's see, pass off a proCO. Poker Ralph, I can't 283 00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:23.160 remember the Russian names. But anyway, that that book that John 284 00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:27.810 mentioned, is fun to read. If you can get a copy of it, I 285 00:26:27.810 --> 00:26:32.100 highly recommend it. So I'm happy to answer questions later 286 00:26:32.100 --> 00:26:34.950 on, but I'll turn it back to Sean. 287 00:26:35.850 --> 00:26:39.180 Okay. Thanks, Keith. And were there any cartoons involved in 288 00:26:39.180 --> 00:26:41.790 those hand drawn cart graphs? 289 00:26:43.020 --> 00:26:47.490 long enough ago, I I think cartoons were not there. But you 290 00:26:47.490 --> 00:26:53.520 can imagine hand drawn physical layouts and diagnostics and and 291 00:26:54.450 --> 00:27:00.570 physical concepts that are illustrated, it was quite the 292 00:27:00.570 --> 00:27:04.530 contrast to what John Hammond required from his people. And 293 00:27:04.530 --> 00:27:07.980 it'd be interesting to know if Mike always did that, but I 294 00:27:07.980 --> 00:27:09.990 really, I really appreciate that. 295 00:27:11.670 --> 00:27:15.390 All right, thanks, Keith. So let's move on to Damon Damon. 296 00:27:15.390 --> 00:27:20.190 Thanks for dialing in. If you want to give us your 297 00:27:20.190 --> 00:27:29.880 introduction maybe on mute Oh, I think you're muted. Amen. You're 298 00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:37.830 muted. Maybe you can unmute. muted. That we can hear you now. 299 00:27:38.250 --> 00:27:43.170 Why can't I know you? Go ahead. No, 300 00:27:43.530 --> 00:27:47.940 now it says I'm unmuted but can you hear me? 301 00:27:48.450 --> 00:27:50.340 We can hear you have to 302 00:27:52.560 --> 00:27:54.210 be able to hear okay. Can you hear me? 303 00:27:56.490 --> 00:28:01.140 Yeah, okay, I want to I want to say I first I first began work 304 00:28:01.140 --> 00:28:09.480 on ICF when I first arrived at Los Alamos in 1972. We had a 305 00:28:10.110 --> 00:28:15.240 single beam last laser. It was a terawatt laser it was already 306 00:28:15.270 --> 00:28:23.190 very nice but and we used to radiate targets with Mike I 307 00:28:23.190 --> 00:28:33.480 think began when he arrived at Livermore I think in 1977. We 308 00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:36.780 could talk and compare results at any time 309 00:28:37.830 --> 00:28:45.990 for them and I think that 310 00:28:47.970 --> 00:28:51.300 Damon you might want to stop sharing video to preserve your 311 00:28:51.300 --> 00:28:56.700 bandwidth but 312 00:29:01.530 --> 00:29:08.040 Jamie, can you turn off your video? Audio? Can you turn off 313 00:29:08.040 --> 00:29:08.790 your video? 314 00:29:08.850 --> 00:29:14.880 Okay. All right, I did that. Is that better? 315 00:29:14.939 --> 00:29:16.529 Now here better? Yeah, that's 316 00:29:16.530 --> 00:29:17.280 much better. Thanks. 317 00:29:18.179 --> 00:29:19.049 Okay. Good. 318 00:29:22.590 --> 00:29:33.990 I have to say the, the mission and technical drivers for ICF 319 00:29:34.560 --> 00:29:41.160 produce a new energy source. The idea was to mimic what had been 320 00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:48.210 done back during the right after the for what we call the bomb 321 00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:56.310 fusion. And here we are here we are with these fantastic white 322 00:29:56.310 --> 00:30:03.270 machines called lasers and We can absorb the light and we can 323 00:30:03.270 --> 00:30:18.450 do the same thing and make fusion video is muted. Okay. 324 00:30:20.250 --> 00:30:30.720 Nice to see. Well well know the history here and I will just 325 00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:35.280 listen. You can go on guys. Okay, thanks, Jamie. Hopefully 326 00:30:35.280 --> 00:30:41.370 we can straighten out your video, my phone connection might 327 00:30:42.180 --> 00:30:47.250 Damon maybe just call in dry. I hear I hear each of you over and 328 00:30:47.250 --> 00:30:50.010 over and over about three or four times. 329 00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:52.290 So you're getting an echo. 330 00:30:52.320 --> 00:30:58.440 Just use your phone. Yeah, dialing on online. Okay, so I 331 00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:01.110 think we have Joe Kilkenny as well, he may be able to add a 332 00:31:01.110 --> 00:31:10.470 few words about the early days Joe. This early I realized early 333 00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:15.600 on mute later Popey. Rich, don't you have to unmute. 334 00:31:19.110 --> 00:31:26.220 So when when, when you when we get the the video working, 335 00:31:26.220 --> 00:31:38.610 you'll see what shows I'm wearing anyway was my perception 336 00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:49.170 that quite uniquely, the UK set up a facility that was only a 337 00:31:49.170 --> 00:31:52.440 user facility at the Madison lab, and that happened about 338 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:59.220 1976 or 77. And then because of that, that offered a great 339 00:31:59.220 --> 00:32:05.070 opportunity for Imperial College in particular, but some other 340 00:32:05.070 --> 00:32:11.010 universities, Queen's University of Belfast, who train lots of us 341 00:32:11.010 --> 00:32:16.980 in ICF. And because we were sort of nuts and bolts, guys, and we 342 00:32:16.980 --> 00:32:21.930 sort of got in there and did things. We had a very different 343 00:32:22.680 --> 00:32:26.790 role than the scientists at Livermore. I first met Campbell 344 00:32:29.490 --> 00:32:36.090 and a clam in Paris and prednisone in 1980. And then 345 00:32:36.120 --> 00:32:38.850 there was this guy sort of lurking in the background was a 346 00:32:39.540 --> 00:32:43.920 big tall guy with a black beard and I don't know who he is. 347 00:32:45.030 --> 00:32:53.550 Obviously, Russia and so I had with him. And it was Mike. I 348 00:32:53.550 --> 00:32:57.690 think he's still tied to me about the shirt I was wearing at 349 00:32:57.690 --> 00:33:00.300 the time, which is a bit worn out, you know, we weren't paid 350 00:33:00.300 --> 00:33:08.400 much in England. My perception actually go into the conference. 351 00:33:08.850 --> 00:33:13.440 How old was I? I was an aspiring young academic at Imperial 352 00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:18.720 College and sort of getting on at a bunch of students and in 353 00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:22.950 England, you know, we kind of sentimental you let the war I 354 00:33:22.950 --> 00:33:27.510 think at that time. It was very hard to understand what's going 355 00:33:27.510 --> 00:33:33.210 on in the US US was still cloaked in secrecy. You know, 356 00:33:33.210 --> 00:33:36.780 can you imagine the the concept of homelands wasn't declassified 357 00:33:36.780 --> 00:33:41.370 until when 1993. He wasn't on for some time like that. And so, 358 00:33:42.360 --> 00:33:50.670 you know, the US. The US talks were obscure, I hope. And when 359 00:33:51.090 --> 00:33:53.670 we got in there, you know, we did the first people who have 360 00:33:54.030 --> 00:33:59.280 the website electrons, when we did string spectroscopy, we sort 361 00:33:59.280 --> 00:34:05.220 of did some proper spectroscopy. We did back lighting of 362 00:34:05.220 --> 00:34:10.590 implosions and at the time, I think it's pretty clear that the 363 00:34:10.590 --> 00:34:15.690 Rutherford lab who was was one of the world leaders, I also 364 00:34:15.720 --> 00:34:21.720 remember I subsequently found out what was going on in 365 00:34:21.720 --> 00:34:26.850 Livermore at the time. And at the time, I think Mike was doing 366 00:34:26.850 --> 00:34:32.490 a lot of work on August. There was Shiva, but he he was working 367 00:34:32.490 --> 00:34:37.170 on the sort of skunk works and lasers is my, my, my 368 00:34:37.170 --> 00:34:44.220 understanding of what was going on and he was looking at the 369 00:34:45.600 --> 00:34:50.910 infrared catastrophe, as I think Keith just said, which is that 370 00:34:51.180 --> 00:34:55.080 if you got one micron, it's not the right wavelength for various 371 00:34:55.080 --> 00:34:59.760 reasons we all known about and on August I think they sort of 372 00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:05.400 show that by going to maybe green and maybe four amigos. I'm 373 00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:10.110 not sure about that. And I remember at that conference, I 374 00:35:10.110 --> 00:35:14.910 don't know if Bob is in the BBs in the audience online at that 375 00:35:14.910 --> 00:35:20.790 conference at the same time. It was Fabray. From Ecole 376 00:35:20.790 --> 00:35:25.860 Polytechnique produced a magnificent set of experiments 377 00:35:25.860 --> 00:35:28.680 and results on the laser absorption versus wavelength. 378 00:35:29.610 --> 00:35:34.380 And I think that might have gone to form. But it's very clear the 379 00:35:34.380 --> 00:35:39.450 absorption is much better. I do remember Bob, who I did not know 380 00:35:39.450 --> 00:35:45.450 at the time, standing up in a very in the, in the normal Bob 381 00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:52.410 manner. Congratulating FRP on the on the great results he's 382 00:35:52.410 --> 00:35:57.960 got and Bob nice to know about what was going on on on August 383 00:35:57.960 --> 00:36:03.330 at the time. And so I just took it on face value. What a nice 384 00:36:03.330 --> 00:36:06.810 guy. Congratulation someone from a different country. 385 00:36:09.870 --> 00:36:21.810 I stopped the moment. That and well, okay. continuation of that 386 00:36:21.810 --> 00:36:24.060 still even maybe that comes later in the day. 387 00:36:25.680 --> 00:36:29.340 I will say that was good there. Say that for a dull moment 388 00:36:29.340 --> 00:36:36.750 later. We have someone has raised bill with Bill, your 389 00:36:36.750 --> 00:36:37.410 question. 390 00:36:38.550 --> 00:36:43.620 This bill KRUPKE. If anyone at this conferences, remembers the 391 00:36:43.620 --> 00:36:45.450 early years, I guess that's me. 392 00:36:50.070 --> 00:36:51.300 Yeah, we can be built. 393 00:36:51.810 --> 00:36:56.400 Okay. My camera's not working in the dark. But yeah, I just want 394 00:36:56.400 --> 00:37:01.380 to say that I'm delighted to participate in this celebration 395 00:37:01.380 --> 00:37:06.360 of Mike Campbell's tenure at ll E. And, and of course, he and I 396 00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:12.930 go back more than 4040 years at Livermore. And in responding to 397 00:37:13.860 --> 00:37:18.660 these questions put to the panel, the laboratories. What 398 00:37:18.660 --> 00:37:21.570 What were the major technical challenges faced and how are 399 00:37:21.570 --> 00:37:25.950 they resolved? I think it's probably worth mentioning that 400 00:37:26.550 --> 00:37:31.980 nonlinear response of glass was the the overarching technical 401 00:37:31.980 --> 00:37:33.270 problem pretty hoarding. 402 00:37:45.330 --> 00:37:54.090 We have a tech savvy crowd on today. I need to claim I just 403 00:37:54.090 --> 00:37:54.960 asked to be host, 404 00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:57.510 but from but jeans not around right now. So 405 00:37:57.839 --> 00:38:04.079 you host the No, I'm not. Yeah, I major flaw. Okay, we'll carry 406 00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:04.379 on 407 00:38:06.420 --> 00:38:12.630 to say that the the insights. At that time. There was much of 408 00:38:12.630 --> 00:38:15.420 history about the nonlinear response to a place where glass 409 00:38:16.290 --> 00:38:24.660 dominated IP, last lasers, and I think a lot Intel, Intel and off 410 00:38:24.660 --> 00:38:28.980 in the Russia had wrote the definitive paper about that. But 411 00:38:28.980 --> 00:38:33.840 I think at Livermore, with the situation in terms of entering a 412 00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:40.380 fusion program, and with John, I met my whole team in 1972, the 413 00:38:40.380 --> 00:38:47.040 laboratory had committed itself to build a 10 watt laser. And it 414 00:38:47.040 --> 00:38:52.020 really didn't have a clue how to do it. And historically, the DoD 415 00:38:53.070 --> 00:38:58.470 had had built a major programs in the decade from about 1960 to 416 00:38:58.470 --> 00:39:06.030 1970. And had a large track record of laser scientists by 417 00:39:06.030 --> 00:39:14.220 that time at Livermore the approach to this question to 418 00:39:14.220 --> 00:39:17.790 build the Shiva laser was to hire people from outside and 419 00:39:17.790 --> 00:39:25.380 that was a cultural a large impact on the laboratory. And we 420 00:39:25.380 --> 00:39:30.630 recorded in 1972. When I got there, the laboratory was just 421 00:39:30.630 --> 00:39:35.160 entering into its first ever reduction in force, and they 422 00:39:35.340 --> 00:39:42.300 laid off 270 People I believe, 1973 and in order for us to meet 423 00:39:42.300 --> 00:39:48.480 the Seba, development and realization schedule, we had to 424 00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:52.950 hire something like 15 people. And we did so from the DoD 425 00:39:52.950 --> 00:39:58.530 laboratories like US Air Naval Research Lab and so on to hit 426 00:39:58.530 --> 00:40:06.870 the ground. In the context of this seminar, we really need to 427 00:40:06.870 --> 00:40:12.960 mention John Trenholm, who became some NRL who became the 428 00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:20.880 chief physicist of the design of modern, the MOPA scheme of high 429 00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:27.630 peak power, high energy class lasers. So, I think the approach 430 00:40:27.630 --> 00:40:32.220 to solving these problems became fairly intense and massive, and 431 00:40:32.220 --> 00:40:37.740 we were able to actually build the Shiva laser. By 1978, I 432 00:40:37.740 --> 00:40:43.200 think we were about six months late on on delivery. But that 433 00:40:43.230 --> 00:40:46.110 that then provided an experimental basis for the 434 00:40:46.110 --> 00:40:50.700 realization that one micron was not going to be a sufficiently 435 00:40:50.700 --> 00:40:55.200 short wavelength to, to get to where we wanted to go. And that 436 00:40:55.260 --> 00:41:01.080 feeds into that era of time that John stories mentioned about 437 00:41:01.140 --> 00:41:06.570 going to color. Those are my pay bills. 438 00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:11.520 Thanks. Thanks, Bill. So let's move on now to the question, 439 00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:15.330 section. Bill, you already jumped into it. So let's open it 440 00:41:15.330 --> 00:41:19.530 up to the panelists. Let's look at the first question. So what 441 00:41:19.530 --> 00:41:22.650 were the main technical and mission drives that impact at 442 00:41:22.650 --> 00:41:26.250 the start of the ICF? Program? So any of our panelists want to 443 00:41:26.250 --> 00:41:26.970 jump in? 444 00:41:28.230 --> 00:41:30.000 I mean, that'd be curious. Because, you know, John talked a 445 00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:33.510 lot about that from a LLC perspective. But you know, what 446 00:41:33.510 --> 00:41:36.690 was going on a little more along those lines, as far as, 447 00:41:36.780 --> 00:41:42.210 especially since that was still in classified spaces that were a 448 00:41:42.210 --> 00:41:44.430 little late when talking about that. 449 00:41:45.690 --> 00:41:49.950 So I joined the laboratory in 1977. I first heard of 450 00:41:49.950 --> 00:41:52.950 Livermore, and then you will not be surprised, because the 451 00:41:52.950 --> 00:41:55.350 Rolling Stones had done a concert at all the month. 452 00:41:57.720 --> 00:41:59.910 Nuclear weapons laboratory and first time ever heard of 453 00:41:59.910 --> 00:42:04.020 Livermore was a reading about a Rolling Stones concert. So a 454 00:42:04.050 --> 00:42:06.840 friend of mine from Princeton had gone out there, Mike Boyle, 455 00:42:07.230 --> 00:42:12.810 and he recruited me to come to Livermore, and in 70s, so that's 456 00:42:12.810 --> 00:42:16.290 where I met all the people we've talked about the real, there was 457 00:42:16.290 --> 00:42:18.990 a real disconnect between the laser program and the weapons 458 00:42:18.990 --> 00:42:22.680 part, there was no interaction whatsoever. It was just focused 459 00:42:22.680 --> 00:42:26.850 on fusion, you know, with a with pretty much a focus on energy, 460 00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:29.640 but it really didn't talk about that. But it was really has no 461 00:42:29.640 --> 00:42:33.990 connection with the weapons program whatsoever. And so it 462 00:42:33.990 --> 00:42:37.080 was, so the driver was John knuckles, of course, you know, 463 00:42:37.080 --> 00:42:41.010 John was very much involved in the File Share Program was, and 464 00:42:41.010 --> 00:42:43.920 that was idea of using nuclear weapons, Edward Taylor's idea 465 00:42:44.250 --> 00:42:48.240 for peaceful purposes, you know, to for for mining and for oil, 466 00:42:48.240 --> 00:42:52.830 excavation, and for, for building, doing crazy things. So 467 00:42:52.830 --> 00:42:56.400 John really worked to try and make fission, the fission 468 00:42:56.430 --> 00:43:00.630 primaries possible. So when the laser came out, John knew right 469 00:43:00.630 --> 00:43:03.540 away, John went to tell her and said, Let's form a program, we 470 00:43:03.540 --> 00:43:07.530 have something that can compress energy and space and time and we 471 00:43:07.530 --> 00:43:10.950 don't need a primary to make fusion. So the primary problem 472 00:43:10.950 --> 00:43:16.200 was very classified. And the original paper John wrote and 72 473 00:43:16.200 --> 00:43:19.410 He wanted to talk about shells, he had to be a teller, you know, 474 00:43:19.410 --> 00:43:21.300 it's always because it was clean, could not talk about 475 00:43:21.300 --> 00:43:24.630 imploding a shell because I was classified. And of course, if 476 00:43:24.630 --> 00:43:27.750 you look at the paper was you get the ignition at intellijel. 477 00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:30.690 But it started at one micron and swept a quarter micron, it was 478 00:43:30.690 --> 00:43:33.510 very, very, you know, intense use of 10 to 17. So things that 479 00:43:33.510 --> 00:43:35.700 were people didn't understand laser plasma interaction 480 00:43:35.700 --> 00:43:41.550 physics. So my first job, so really was not connected with 481 00:43:41.550 --> 00:43:43.440 stockpile stewardship. They didn't that didn't exist, the 482 00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:46.230 weapons program was actively testing. So there was no no 483 00:43:46.230 --> 00:43:51.210 interest in the lasers for the weapons program at all. And we 484 00:43:51.210 --> 00:43:54.300 used to joke about there was a north and south laboratory, and 485 00:43:54.300 --> 00:43:57.270 there was a barrier between them and they didn't connect. Bill 486 00:43:57.270 --> 00:44:01.350 was right about Carl Houseman who is one of the heroes of 487 00:44:01.350 --> 00:44:05.520 Livermore. He was a guy whose job was to get things done. And 488 00:44:05.520 --> 00:44:09.540 so he when there was opportunity to build a big laser, he was the 489 00:44:09.540 --> 00:44:12.660 one who went out and recruited John Emmett. John Trenholm, John 490 00:44:12.660 --> 00:44:17.220 Holt's Rector from Naval Research, lab calm. And Carl was 491 00:44:17.220 --> 00:44:20.520 the one who really got the program started. And John Emmet, 492 00:44:21.420 --> 00:44:25.890 consolidated the program. And ways that the Livermore had not 493 00:44:25.890 --> 00:44:29.580 worked before. Because it was a long path was not a successful 494 00:44:29.580 --> 00:44:32.160 laser. I mean, just as they'll prep you said it took the 495 00:44:32.190 --> 00:44:36.360 experts to make lasers there. So my first job was working with 496 00:44:36.390 --> 00:44:39.000 artists and the infrared catastrophe that happened 497 00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:42.480 because up until the time was doing exploding pushers, you 498 00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:45.570 know, 100 picosecond experiments that John talked about kms 499 00:44:45.570 --> 00:44:48.870 fusion, you know, and that's that's a true story about Kip 500 00:44:48.870 --> 00:44:52.800 Segal. Proctor Jones told me that story about him dying on a 501 00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:56.160 on the witness stand, and for about 15 minutes, no one knew 502 00:44:56.160 --> 00:45:00.000 what to do. And so of course, there was no CPR or anything 503 00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:02.640 like that, so no one was trained in how to save people's lives. 504 00:45:04.230 --> 00:45:09.000 But it was, you know, when we did whole rooms, and I had just 505 00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:11.850 started when they started to do whole rooms, it was a 506 00:45:11.850 --> 00:45:15.210 catastrophe. And I know it's called the passerby and all of a 507 00:45:15.210 --> 00:45:18.570 sudden plasma physics, which the lab was not prepared to do. 508 00:45:19.560 --> 00:45:21.810 There were no there was not a fluke clocks, there was nothing 509 00:45:21.810 --> 00:45:25.410 I actually, I think the first hints were a neutron detectors 510 00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:29.910 that we're seeing X ray signals from an inch of lit. How could 511 00:45:29.910 --> 00:45:32.760 that happen? You had a 200 volt whole room, how could you make X 512 00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:35.640 rays? How could the an x ray source that was 100 kilovolts. 513 00:45:36.120 --> 00:45:40.710 And so my job was to actually not work on August initially was 514 00:45:40.710 --> 00:45:44.280 to go to Shiva. And Shiva had a goal of getting a radiation 515 00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:48.480 driven compressions to 20 grams per cc, you know, to 100 times 516 00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:52.830 liquid density that was that was the mitsuba milestone that did 517 00:45:52.830 --> 00:45:56.250 not have a yield milestone no had a density milestone. And so 518 00:45:56.280 --> 00:46:00.480 I was given the task of the only way to measure it was neutron 519 00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:05.550 activation of it was a blast, blast pusher, and neutron 520 00:46:05.550 --> 00:46:10.530 activation of the silicon by dt neutrons. So I was given the 521 00:46:10.530 --> 00:46:14.220 task of RAD Chem, I'd never done any nuclear physics. And so I 522 00:46:14.220 --> 00:46:16.830 had to learn. I'm sure it probably would be a surprise, 523 00:46:16.830 --> 00:46:19.380 but I had to measure cross sections and everything else. 524 00:46:20.010 --> 00:46:23.040 And of course, the yield was a 10 to minus four of what it was 525 00:46:23.040 --> 00:46:25.470 supposed to be. And activate, you know, neutron active 526 00:46:25.830 --> 00:46:29.970 ACTIVATION REQUIRED neutrons. So it was a very long process to 527 00:46:29.970 --> 00:46:33.150 figure out how to get collect the mass. Yeah, do all the crazy 528 00:46:33.150 --> 00:46:36.540 things is underground, but it works. And actually, we had a 529 00:46:36.540 --> 00:46:39.120 great experiment right before Christmas when I went back and 530 00:46:39.150 --> 00:46:41.700 Crete and I started dating. And so I still remember that. 531 00:46:44.100 --> 00:46:47.700 But eventually, it worked. And then and we got it. And they 532 00:46:47.700 --> 00:46:51.120 asked me what I wanted to do. I said, we got to change the color 533 00:46:51.120 --> 00:46:55.110 of the laser. This does not work. And so we had Chris KDP 534 00:46:55.110 --> 00:47:00.030 crystals about this big. And we converted artists to do color. 535 00:47:00.930 --> 00:47:04.770 One, two, and three Mega. And it's all classified. And I 536 00:47:04.770 --> 00:47:06.690 remember when fabric gave this talk, I said we can't talk we're 537 00:47:06.690 --> 00:47:09.000 doing it too. We can't talk about it. And it was driving me 538 00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:12.660 crazy. Because I still remember McCrory saying that statement to 539 00:47:12.660 --> 00:47:18.210 fabric. And you know, and it worked. And we showed that whole 540 00:47:18.210 --> 00:47:22.320 runs, goes much better coupling electrons all the things that we 541 00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:25.830 all did worth but we never could publish it was never published. 542 00:47:26.220 --> 00:47:31.590 Because all classified. And there's something that was I was 543 00:47:31.590 --> 00:47:34.350 so anxious to talk about this and we could never say anything. 544 00:47:34.830 --> 00:47:37.440 But but you should ANOVA was cancelled because at same time 545 00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:40.140 living was building lasers every couple of years. So the Shiva 546 00:47:40.140 --> 00:47:43.140 then there was gonna be Nova. And Nova was a 240 kilojoule 547 00:47:43.140 --> 00:47:47.070 laser to operate at one micron for ignition. I even have the I 548 00:47:47.070 --> 00:47:52.560 gave a a plot of the yield versus time with Nova to John 549 00:47:52.560 --> 00:47:55.140 Emma, which showed Nova was supposed to produce mega joules 550 00:47:55.140 --> 00:47:58.740 of fusion yield. But it was cancelled because everyone knew 551 00:47:58.740 --> 00:48:01.620 that the end Shiva had the problem because it was one 552 00:48:01.620 --> 00:48:06.720 micron laser. And so Nova was cancelled. And so John Emmett 553 00:48:07.200 --> 00:48:10.950 was going back to save the program. And I went to his house 554 00:48:10.950 --> 00:48:15.090 on a Sunday with the data from August was all classified, which 555 00:48:15.090 --> 00:48:20.580 of course, I didn't mark is classified. That John took back 556 00:48:20.610 --> 00:48:25.680 Washington and showed the Senate shows the committee's, we had a 557 00:48:25.680 --> 00:48:31.560 solution to the problem. And then Nova was restored. The same 558 00:48:31.560 --> 00:48:35.550 cost 100 $70 million, but now to do three America. And so that 559 00:48:35.550 --> 00:48:39.660 was the beginnings of the color. Livermore, mid August was a 560 00:48:39.660 --> 00:48:40.200 great success. 561 00:48:40.380 --> 00:48:43.290 We have a question. Yes, online. Josh, you have a question. You 562 00:48:43.290 --> 00:48:44.040 have your hand raised? 563 00:48:48.660 --> 00:48:52.350 Yeah. Hey, sorry. Good morning. I wanted to go back to John. I 564 00:48:52.350 --> 00:48:54.270 don't want to interrupt Mike, though. And I look forward to 565 00:48:54.270 --> 00:48:59.250 seeing Mike you later today. But John is great to hear you. And 566 00:48:59.250 --> 00:49:02.370 I'm really interested in the early years at the university 567 00:49:02.820 --> 00:49:07.410 and want to know, you know, what was the university's reaction 568 00:49:07.410 --> 00:49:11.940 and buy in and, and how supportive of they were, they 569 00:49:11.940 --> 00:49:15.000 have these early concepts and working with Kodak and, and 570 00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:19.650 making this leap because I think even back then, no working with 571 00:49:19.650 --> 00:49:22.590 Kodak in certain respects to the institute optics. There was some 572 00:49:22.770 --> 00:49:25.380 long standing partnerships there, but I'm more interested 573 00:49:25.380 --> 00:49:27.480 about the history and the universities buying and support 574 00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:30.810 in the early years. Okay, so let's let's 575 00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:34.530 let's let Mike finish what he's talking about, and then we'll go 576 00:49:34.530 --> 00:49:35.460 on to that question. 577 00:49:36.390 --> 00:49:39.210 Yes. Speaking of Rochester, so I actually met most a little bit. 578 00:49:39.210 --> 00:49:43.140 So I began I joined Livermore in 77. And anyone has been 579 00:49:43.140 --> 00:49:45.750 delivered more. There's a conference room and 381 little 580 00:49:45.750 --> 00:49:51.540 conference room. And one day, I think my boss Eric storm said 581 00:49:51.630 --> 00:49:53.940 there's some people coming from this university back east 582 00:49:53.940 --> 00:49:59.970 Rochester. And so we was Eric and myself and Moshe Goldman and 583 00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:03.420 mccorry, a young Bob. And it was first time I ever heard about 584 00:50:03.420 --> 00:50:08.910 LOA and first time motion, of course. And so we had lots of 585 00:50:08.910 --> 00:50:12.150 interactions, you know, as time went on with. I still remember 586 00:50:12.420 --> 00:50:14.760 when Stevie comes with a frequency conversion type one 587 00:50:14.760 --> 00:50:18.540 type two frequency frequency conversion. And of course, 588 00:50:19.230 --> 00:50:23.550 Livermore talks about Nova at some point, Livermore adopted 589 00:50:23.550 --> 00:50:28.410 that. And unfortunately, the for Nova Nova was a slightly 590 00:50:28.410 --> 00:50:31.170 depolarized. And so it didn't work so well. So we had to go to 591 00:50:31.170 --> 00:50:35.370 type two, type two after all of this. And that was a wonderful 592 00:50:35.370 --> 00:50:39.360 experience to see how know the context. But let me talk about 593 00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:43.860 Joe. So you know, when I first got to the point of being able 594 00:50:43.860 --> 00:50:47.010 to hire people, I was a group leader and I just started staff 595 00:50:47.010 --> 00:50:52.170 signing maybe a group leader for basic experiments. And I went to 596 00:50:52.170 --> 00:50:55.470 this conference and eat clam and I and I knew Rutherford was 597 00:50:55.470 --> 00:50:57.630 doing very good work. Joe was right Rutherford, I thought was 598 00:50:57.630 --> 00:50:59.520 doing the best work at the time. They were actually doing 599 00:50:59.520 --> 00:51:03.720 backlighting actually, radiography and Thompson scan 600 00:51:03.720 --> 00:51:08.400 and so I decided we needed to hire the best people in the 601 00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:14.490 world. And so I identified to Hector baldness from laser 602 00:51:14.490 --> 00:51:17.880 plasma interactions that he was at NRC and Argentinian and 603 00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:21.780 Canada and Joe. So I decided I'm gonna hire Kilkenny he didn't 604 00:51:21.780 --> 00:51:24.510 know who I was. And, and I remember going up to Joe, and he 605 00:51:24.510 --> 00:51:27.810 had a faded shirt on yet it was a shirt, a shirt with roses on 606 00:51:27.810 --> 00:51:31.650 it, that it was faded. It was so bad. And he also had dental 607 00:51:31.650 --> 00:51:34.620 problems. And I thought it's exactly what I was taught about 608 00:51:34.620 --> 00:51:36.570 the British they don't have they don't go to the dentist. They 609 00:51:36.570 --> 00:51:42.240 don't have work clothes very well. And I go to Joe and I 610 00:51:42.240 --> 00:51:45.120 introduce myself and I said what to think about Livermore, they 611 00:51:45.120 --> 00:51:51.330 have all the money but they suck. Kilkenny praise. So we 612 00:51:51.330 --> 00:51:53.910 started a dialogue and a guy Riddick Lee helped us because 613 00:51:53.910 --> 00:51:58.740 Nick was working at Imperial at the time, an American. And I 614 00:51:58.740 --> 00:52:01.860 asked Joe, if we have all the money and how they wanted to 615 00:52:01.860 --> 00:52:06.300 come across and fix it and build a framing camera. And so Joe 616 00:52:06.300 --> 00:52:09.810 came over, I'll get to that. And the British Invasion, because I 617 00:52:09.810 --> 00:52:14.580 almost got fired over that too. And the rest is history. But 618 00:52:14.580 --> 00:52:19.710 that's my first interaction with Joe. And it was a been a 619 00:52:19.710 --> 00:52:21.840 longtime friendship and everything else. And you know, 620 00:52:21.840 --> 00:52:24.360 just been a player for a long time. But, but that's a true 621 00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:28.710 story about Rosie Rutherford and the role that Joe played in that 622 00:52:28.710 --> 00:52:32.940 and everything. And Joe was the first foreigner hired Livermore, 623 00:52:33.180 --> 00:52:36.090 there was actually someone that Brian McNamara who worked in The 624 00:52:36.120 --> 00:52:40.080 MFE program, but Joe was into, we got him he had a security 625 00:52:40.080 --> 00:52:43.920 clearance, we got him a security clearance with Awa. And so he 626 00:52:43.920 --> 00:52:47.370 was the first one hired into the classified program. And I almost 627 00:52:47.370 --> 00:52:49.380 got fired out when we talked about the British Invasion, I'll 628 00:52:49.380 --> 00:52:52.290 tell you in about almost getting fired about that, just as he 629 00:52:52.290 --> 00:52:55.110 said, I never paid attention to what Emmett told me to do. 630 00:52:55.320 --> 00:52:57.450 Right. So, you know, I would make up that you know what 631 00:52:57.450 --> 00:53:00.090 happened? Of course, I wouldn't know what to say. So on the 632 00:53:00.090 --> 00:53:02.970 plane or whatever, in the conference, I'd make up my talk. 633 00:53:03.450 --> 00:53:06.450 And of course, I didn't go through any, didn't do I didn't 634 00:53:06.450 --> 00:53:10.200 do was supposed to do but that was okay. I enjoyed doing it. So 635 00:53:10.470 --> 00:53:12.060 that was the beginning of live with that when I was at 636 00:53:12.060 --> 00:53:17.220 Livermore. And so our meeting Teller and Knuckles, all the 637 00:53:17.340 --> 00:53:19.710 John M and all the people who were really the beginnings of 638 00:53:19.710 --> 00:53:23.010 the field. And there's a good book about Livermore. It's 639 00:53:23.010 --> 00:53:26.730 called convert from Berkeley to Berlin, about the early days of 640 00:53:26.730 --> 00:53:30.300 Livermore and and Livermore, his focus was on miniaturizing 641 00:53:30.300 --> 00:53:35.370 nuclear weapons. And Johnny Foster, Harold Brown and herb 642 00:53:35.370 --> 00:53:38.400 York are key for that. And it's a very good book to read about 643 00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:42.360 that. Because everyone thinks everyone has seen the movie. Dr. 644 00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:45.720 Strangelove. You always think that strange saw this as Edward 645 00:53:45.720 --> 00:53:48.960 Teller, it's not it's it's Herman Kahn. It's not teller. 646 00:53:48.960 --> 00:53:53.550 It's Herman Kahn. This con worked at one of the think tanks 647 00:53:53.550 --> 00:53:56.940 at the airport, you know, but what's the name of the book, but 648 00:53:56.940 --> 00:53:58.080 he works with a company worked 649 00:53:58.080 --> 00:53:59.340 on this is a run corporate 650 00:53:59.880 --> 00:54:04.980 Corporation. He I think he's the one who said, Have you ever 651 00:54:04.980 --> 00:54:07.860 wanted to tear it? You have to have it mobile. And it's got to 652 00:54:07.860 --> 00:54:11.670 be you know, if you ever see Dr. Strangelove when, you know, when 653 00:54:11.670 --> 00:54:15.450 he writes the bomb, it's that was the that was literally the 654 00:54:15.450 --> 00:54:18.390 size of a nuclear weapon at the time. So plants could carry one 655 00:54:18.390 --> 00:54:22.110 bomb. And so content you have to miniaturize. So plants can carry 656 00:54:22.110 --> 00:54:25.380 multiple weapons, they have to be able to be mobile platforms, 657 00:54:25.380 --> 00:54:29.190 which means submarines. And so he's the one who really started 658 00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:31.980 Livermore on that pathway. The first three tests of them were 659 00:54:31.980 --> 00:54:35.580 did all failed. Edward Teller designs. It's not the first one, 660 00:54:35.580 --> 00:54:39.480 the first three failed. So Johnny foster took over and 661 00:54:39.480 --> 00:54:41.520 Harold Brown so it's a really good book about Livermore and 662 00:54:41.520 --> 00:54:44.820 Knuckles is not mentioned. I think once but John came into 663 00:54:44.820 --> 00:54:48.720 that group. He was at Columbia, and Teller came and gave a talk 664 00:54:48.720 --> 00:54:52.740 and hired John out of graduate school. John, you know, did all 665 00:54:52.740 --> 00:54:55.350 the stuff that he did so John was, uh, I was hoping he would 666 00:54:55.350 --> 00:54:59.160 be able to speak but he's in his mind. He's now he's, I 667 00:54:59.160 --> 00:55:02.400 occasionally get him About once a month about fusion energy. 668 00:55:03.390 --> 00:55:06.750 He's still active as best they can. So he's a great guy in a 669 00:55:06.780 --> 00:55:09.180 lot of has a lot, a lot of history in the program. 670 00:55:09.510 --> 00:55:10.440 Okay, thanks, Mike. 671 00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:13.380 Could you follow up question before we jump to the Josh's 672 00:55:13.380 --> 00:55:18.120 question to Damon? So, David, you mentioned the glass laser at 673 00:55:18.120 --> 00:55:23.550 Los Alamos. How did Los Alamos end up with the focusing on co2 674 00:55:23.550 --> 00:55:38.250 lasers? Damon, are you digital muted Damon? You can unmute him. 675 00:55:38.250 --> 00:55:38.910 John Sharp. 676 00:55:38.970 --> 00:55:42.420 Yeah. Let me unmute. Can I mute him? Yeah, I think great. Great. 677 00:55:42.420 --> 00:55:43.230 Click on him 678 00:55:43.260 --> 00:55:47.010 on his image. You can also turn his camera 679 00:55:52.200 --> 00:55:59.460 asked to unmute. Jamie, have to unmute. You're muted. Good, 680 00:55:59.490 --> 00:56:03.390 you're good. All right. Yes. 681 00:56:08.430 --> 00:56:09.150 After 682 00:56:15.150 --> 00:56:18.120 after a short, well, not too short. 683 00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:29.790 After about five, five or six years, Livermore became was 684 00:56:29.820 --> 00:56:35.550 moving ahead much faster, with bigger, more energetic and 685 00:56:35.610 --> 00:56:44.490 multiple beam last lasers. And we what we did not as every 686 00:56:44.520 --> 00:56:49.680 every lab simply did not want to just compete with with 687 00:56:49.770 --> 00:56:54.180 Livermore. We wanted to try everything. So there were a 688 00:56:54.180 --> 00:57:00.480 number of experts at Los Alamos in that time. And who could 689 00:57:00.600 --> 00:57:06.930 could build a co2 laser. And so we went after co2 lasers from 690 00:57:06.930 --> 00:57:15.990 then on. Until was almost lost the essentially lost all the 691 00:57:15.990 --> 00:57:27.450 funding. But the these choices were the people who had to make 692 00:57:27.450 --> 00:57:32.160 these decisions, had to look at what was available at Los Alamos 693 00:57:32.160 --> 00:57:40.260 in terms of competence in terms of available, available space 694 00:57:40.260 --> 00:57:46.830 available everything. And the ones who made the choice about 695 00:57:46.830 --> 00:57:51.060 going switching from getting away from glass lasers to go to 696 00:57:51.060 --> 00:57:58.950 co2, where Jean McCall and Keith Boyer pieces this past, but 697 00:57:58.950 --> 00:58:05.130 genius little warm up, we always had a good collaboration among 698 00:58:05.130 --> 00:58:11.550 the labs. So long as we weren't simply competing and built in 699 00:58:11.550 --> 00:58:16.920 the type of laser we were building. We shared ideas for 700 00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:27.750 target fabrication, and diagnostic development. And each 701 00:58:27.810 --> 00:58:35.760 each lab added its own ideas on the diagnostics and that helped 702 00:58:35.790 --> 00:58:41.820 help both of us are helped all of us. The major technical 703 00:58:41.820 --> 00:58:45.600 challenges that we were facing at that time were designing 704 00:58:46.200 --> 00:58:51.090 drivers with proper pulse lengths and shapes and achieving 705 00:58:51.090 --> 00:58:58.110 symmetric drive of the capsules, which sort of graduated from 706 00:58:58.140 --> 00:59:04.140 directly striking the capsule with multiple beams to filling a 707 00:59:04.170 --> 00:59:08.550 hole round with X rays uniformly and having them uniformly 708 00:59:08.550 --> 00:59:18.390 radiate little capsule that was inside and avoiding hydrodynamic 709 00:59:18.390 --> 00:59:24.990 instabilities which of course is not only a problem for us, but 710 00:59:24.990 --> 00:59:32.100 it's a problem for the plasma physics community as a whole. On 711 00:59:32.100 --> 00:59:36.450 these are matric boundaries, and collaboration between the labs 712 00:59:36.450 --> 00:59:42.270 often helped to find some solution. I think I mentioned 713 00:59:42.720 --> 00:59:48.960 my, my time I began worked on ICF when I first arrived at the 714 00:59:49.260 --> 00:59:54.120 lab at Los Alamos and 72. I think Mike began when he arrived 715 00:59:54.120 --> 01:00:01.410 at Livermore, I think and 77 which was which was great. By 716 01:00:01.410 --> 01:00:07.590 1985. I had moved on to managing other projects at Los Alamos, 717 01:00:08.460 --> 01:00:14.070 mostly weapons. So my contact with ICF diminished, but it 718 01:00:14.070 --> 01:00:16.080 never totally ended. 719 01:00:18.990 --> 01:00:21.690 Dana, we have Keith is raising his hand. Keith, you have a 720 01:00:21.690 --> 01:00:22.350 question. 721 01:00:23.430 --> 01:00:28.200 Actually, I was gonna make a comment. But Damon finish. And 722 01:00:28.230 --> 01:00:30.450 then I'll, Keith, it's, 723 01:00:30.990 --> 01:00:36.870 I wanted to make a comment too. It's good to hear you. I don't 724 01:00:36.870 --> 01:00:37.200 have the 725 01:00:38.370 --> 01:00:50.160 the I can't see you. But I am delighted that that could be 726 01:00:50.160 --> 01:00:53.790 here be be part of this. And it's good to talk to you again. 727 01:00:54.420 --> 01:01:01.770 And I wanted to I wanted to is Mike, is Mike there. Yeah, I 728 01:01:03.210 --> 01:01:13.290 would like to retirement boy. Mike, 729 01:01:14.400 --> 01:01:21.870 congratulations, I'm really, if I don't, if my my computer or 730 01:01:22.590 --> 01:01:27.060 contact system breaks out again. I wanted to congratulate you and 731 01:01:27.060 --> 01:01:31.020 say I'm really delighted with what you have done with your 732 01:01:31.020 --> 01:01:35.850 career over your lifetime so far. And I'll bet you're going 733 01:01:35.850 --> 01:01:40.740 to continue doing great things. And I'm just delighted to be 734 01:01:40.740 --> 01:01:47.490 able to talk to you and I wish you I wish you well. Take care 735 01:01:47.490 --> 01:01:47.880 of buddy 736 01:01:48.990 --> 01:01:51.750 Damon, it's great to hear from I remember all our interactions 737 01:01:51.780 --> 01:01:54.330 coming to see you in Los Alamos and you would live on Mars. It's 738 01:01:54.330 --> 01:01:57.270 great to great to hear you again. Yep, 739 01:01:57.299 --> 01:01:58.109 we had good 740 01:01:58.170 --> 01:02:01.020 good collaboration and good interactions. Thank you. 741 01:02:04.200 --> 01:02:06.300 Okay, go ahead, Keith. Thanks, Damon. 742 01:02:07.200 --> 01:02:13.440 Well, Damon's comments on co2 reminded me to like to comment 743 01:02:13.440 --> 01:02:21.180 on kind of the question and the focus of the time. at Sandia in 744 01:02:21.180 --> 01:02:26.490 the late 70s, the focus in the laser group was developing 745 01:02:26.520 --> 01:02:29.670 trying to develop a laser that was much more high efficiency, 746 01:02:29.700 --> 01:02:34.380 high energy efficiency from driver to laser energy output. 747 01:02:34.860 --> 01:02:38.400 So the things I was working on at the time, were modeling, 748 01:02:38.730 --> 01:02:43.500 hydrogen fluoride lasers, and Americans hate light lasers and 749 01:02:43.770 --> 01:02:49.770 photo pumped iodine lasers. The focus of that time I had, in 750 01:02:49.770 --> 01:02:53.880 that particular part of the same focus of that 751 01:02:59.640 --> 01:03:07.050 was efficiency of the laser for fusion energy. And that was 752 01:03:07.050 --> 01:03:11.580 relatively unique from the the weapons mission, the pulse Power 753 01:03:11.580 --> 01:03:14.610 Program was always very much focused on the weapons mission, 754 01:03:15.030 --> 01:03:20.640 and, and, and material properties. But the focus on the 755 01:03:20.640 --> 01:03:25.170 late 70s at Sandia, before the program was shut down in about 756 01:03:25.170 --> 01:03:31.200 19 8080, or 81, was to develop, tried to develop a high 757 01:03:31.230 --> 01:03:36.060 efficiency, laser source. And of course, a lot of those things 758 01:03:36.090 --> 01:03:39.270 were carried on and other sources, including NRL and Los 759 01:03:39.270 --> 01:03:43.830 Alamos, but a lot of the original early work was done at 760 01:03:43.830 --> 01:03:49.470 Sandia, and in those those different laser schemes, I just 761 01:03:49.500 --> 01:03:55.950 wanted to make the comment that the there was indeed a parallel 762 01:03:55.950 --> 01:04:01.560 path for a fusion mission and the weapons mission, which has, 763 01:04:02.220 --> 01:04:06.870 which has pretty much been maintained to this day. Thank 764 01:04:06.870 --> 01:04:07.110 you. 765 01:04:08.910 --> 01:04:12.720 Alright, thanks. Thanks, Keith. So why don't we just looped back 766 01:04:12.720 --> 01:04:16.680 around to Josh's question, John, do you want to dress the one on 767 01:04:16.680 --> 01:04:17.430 the history 768 01:04:17.490 --> 01:04:21.870 says every call was how the interaction between Kodak and 769 01:04:21.870 --> 01:04:22.680 Rochester? 770 01:04:27.630 --> 01:04:33.000 Yeah. As you might imagine, with a company the size of Kodak at 771 01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:37.440 that time, they had about 65,000 employees in the Rochester area. 772 01:04:38.670 --> 01:04:42.840 There were a big factor in the economy and I had very close 773 01:04:44.220 --> 01:04:49.110 relations with the university people on their on our board 774 01:04:49.230 --> 01:04:54.930 from from Kodak and vice versa. So that was a very natural 775 01:04:54.930 --> 01:05:01.800 thing. And one that you dates back to George Eastman. 776 01:05:01.800 --> 01:05:07.050 Basically, he is the principal reason why the university is 777 01:05:07.050 --> 01:05:11.010 here how he built the University of Rochester single handedly. 778 01:05:14.850 --> 01:05:15.330 Okay, 779 01:05:16.500 --> 01:05:20.430 I hope that answers it for you, Josh. So let's look at the 780 01:05:20.430 --> 01:05:23.430 second one. Let's Let's concentrate a little bit on the 781 01:05:23.580 --> 01:05:29.580 preparation and competition. Anyone want to address this one? 782 01:05:32.730 --> 01:05:34.680 Joe, was there anything in the spirit of the national 783 01:05:34.680 --> 01:05:45.210 diagnostics working group back in those days? Get the passive 784 01:05:45.210 --> 01:05:50.190 aggressive No. We can't hear 785 01:05:50.190 --> 01:05:59.250 you. Yeah, no, no, no, that was as Keith is on the line, a 786 01:06:00.930 --> 01:06:10.500 little bit more some perspective on pulse bell because ace was a 787 01:06:13.380 --> 01:06:17.040 PhD PhDs at the same time, except he was caught up. So he 788 01:06:17.040 --> 01:06:21.840 started two or three years late. I just finished doing Thompson 789 01:06:21.840 --> 01:06:23.820 scattering on MFE plasma and I. 790 01:06:25.590 --> 01:06:33.720 My main point was I think was Martin Charlie Martin, not Tom 791 01:06:33.720 --> 01:06:38.310 Martin, who was aw II and he told us how to use long lines, 792 01:06:38.310 --> 01:06:47.730 and there still is an Imperial College called magpie. But pace 793 01:06:48.030 --> 01:06:52.350 pace, went back to the Sandia pace was part of the equation. 794 01:06:52.800 --> 01:06:58.590 So pace went to Sandia in 1976. Is that right? Actually, 795 01:06:59.520 --> 01:07:03.690 I started one day before I did Joe in 1974. 796 01:07:05.070 --> 01:07:10.230 And, of course, Keith, and pace have the same birthday within 797 01:07:10.230 --> 01:07:11.370 one day, don't you? 798 01:07:11.820 --> 01:07:14.070 That's right, September. 799 01:07:17.250 --> 01:07:21.150 So it's quite easy to get happy birthday to one or the other, 800 01:07:21.150 --> 01:07:25.650 because I can remember either can remember that. But the pulse 801 01:07:25.650 --> 01:07:30.900 power work at Sandia was primarily for radiography as far 802 01:07:30.900 --> 01:07:38.880 as I understand. And then gradually producing pulsed 803 01:07:38.880 --> 01:07:44.010 electrons and the electron beam fusion facility ever, wasn't it? 804 01:07:44.010 --> 01:07:47.580 I think it was called. And then I suddenly changed his name to 805 01:07:47.580 --> 01:07:53.310 pbfa. Sounds good. I think they changed the name for particles. 806 01:07:56.160 --> 01:07:56.940 That's right. 807 01:07:57.629 --> 01:08:06.779 Z in 1996. I think that's right. And so, this was all going on in 808 01:08:06.779 --> 01:08:12.959 parallel. And pace and I have remained friends throughout the 809 01:08:12.959 --> 01:08:22.349 years and, of course, had just had had the high conversion 810 01:08:22.349 --> 01:08:29.639 efficient pulse power that was demonstrated by Steiger. Had 811 01:08:29.639 --> 01:08:31.679 that happened to here too earlier, that would have vastly 812 01:08:31.679 --> 01:08:35.699 prejudice the case for NIF as I'm sure Mike will point out 813 01:08:35.939 --> 01:08:48.809 later in the day very healthy competition between the two this 814 01:08:48.809 --> 01:08:51.869 day, it's not it's not entirely clear where we're where the 815 01:08:51.869 --> 01:09:00.719 country is gonna go next after NIF is it and so I mean, very 816 01:09:00.719 --> 01:09:06.539 very useful technical. interchange between between the 817 01:09:06.569 --> 01:09:15.179 laser programs and the pulse power programs. They normally in 818 01:09:15.179 --> 01:09:16.559 my knowledge of pesos 819 01:09:19.380 --> 01:09:22.680 request from someone in the audience to show your T shirt. 820 01:09:24.779 --> 01:09:28.349 Oh, wow. Can you see what can you see my 821 01:09:30.660 --> 01:09:44.910 Yep, very nice. Not too bright. 822 01:09:46.710 --> 01:09:49.770 Y'all, y'all are back in or you are breaking up a little bit 823 01:09:50.010 --> 01:09:53.010 back and reframe the question to keep So Keith, you didn't 824 01:09:53.010 --> 01:09:56.670 mention, you know, and just talked about electron beam 825 01:09:56.670 --> 01:10:02.550 fusion accelerator. You know what drove India to go from EBS 826 01:10:02.550 --> 01:10:07.380 at PBfT and switch to my ions. Okay, the 827 01:10:08.610 --> 01:10:11.640 before I answer that, Chris, can I just comment on the 828 01:10:11.640 --> 01:10:20.310 collaboration? Yep, I guess I will. I have the floor. History 829 01:10:20.310 --> 01:10:22.770 and the program is the collaboration on things like 830 01:10:22.770 --> 01:10:27.690 diagnostics and target Bab has been always exemplary. And and 831 01:10:27.690 --> 01:10:31.680 whether you're going to have proton or an A particle beam or, 832 01:10:32.190 --> 01:10:38.880 or any of the drivers or any of the different laser platforms, 833 01:10:39.450 --> 01:10:42.690 it was basically a competition of ideas. So I think it's been a 834 01:10:42.690 --> 01:10:48.240 very healthy competition ideas in the driver technologies and 835 01:10:48.240 --> 01:10:54.030 tremendous collaboration on technology used for the targets 836 01:10:54.030 --> 01:10:58.740 and diagnostics and and all the overlapping areas that everyone 837 01:10:58.740 --> 01:11:04.560 needs. It's, which is probably optimal program. Competition is 838 01:11:04.560 --> 01:11:07.560 a good thing. Now to your question, Chris on the 839 01:11:07.560 --> 01:11:14.040 transition. As Joe mentioned, pulse power originated entirely 840 01:11:14.040 --> 01:11:17.190 for the weapons program for radiography, and then for 841 01:11:17.550 --> 01:11:22.500 effects testing. And an early early days is Tomcat 842 01:11:22.500 --> 01:11:28.080 collaboration between a ewe and Sandy in particular for all 843 01:11:28.080 --> 01:11:30.570 these technologies. And totally Martin, of course, was the 844 01:11:30.570 --> 01:11:36.120 father of many of these things. So we had, we had the capability 845 01:11:36.120 --> 01:11:39.000 to generate these very intense electron beams. So early on the 846 01:11:39.000 --> 01:11:44.460 program was electron beam fusion accelerator. And at some point, 847 01:11:44.460 --> 01:11:48.660 people did detailed calculations of stopping powers and realized 848 01:11:48.660 --> 01:11:53.400 that electrons have pretty long range and materials. And so 849 01:11:54.210 --> 01:11:57.660 basically, everything is an exploding pusher, if you will. 850 01:11:58.170 --> 01:12:04.890 So from the time they started building, the EB F A to the time 851 01:12:04.890 --> 01:12:11.250 it was completed in 1980, it was in two pbfa, the Particle Beam 852 01:12:11.250 --> 01:12:15.900 fusion accelerator as and of course, as someone mentioned, 853 01:12:17.040 --> 01:12:23.430 pbfa, one was completed in 1980. And pbfa, two, which is now as 854 01:12:23.430 --> 01:12:28.980 V. Z facility was completed in 1986. But basically had to do 855 01:12:28.980 --> 01:12:34.500 with stopping power. I realized early on that exploiting pushers 856 01:12:34.500 --> 01:12:39.240 weren't going to get you to the promised land of high densities 857 01:12:39.240 --> 01:12:41.910 that might high density fuel compressions that Mike talked 858 01:12:41.910 --> 01:12:49.650 about earlier. So that's that story, Chris. Thanks. All right. 859 01:12:49.740 --> 01:12:52.710 Thank you. Question. Go ahead, Ron. Yeah, 860 01:12:52.740 --> 01:12:56.790 so Mike, you mentioned that fusion program was not really 861 01:12:56.880 --> 01:13:02.190 motivated by the weapons program. So by the time you guys 862 01:13:02.190 --> 01:13:07.020 decided to use lasers, Akita had already published his isotropic, 863 01:13:07.020 --> 01:13:10.050 compression, pulse shapes and so on. So why did you go the direct 864 01:13:10.050 --> 01:13:12.600 route? What made you choose indirect? Right? 865 01:13:13.230 --> 01:13:16.890 That's a good question. And the reason I think it's a couple of 866 01:13:16.890 --> 01:13:22.350 reasons. First of all, early experiments showed that electron 867 01:13:22.350 --> 01:13:28.140 conduction was not so good. And, you know, so that was so that 868 01:13:28.140 --> 01:13:32.040 was a problem there and getting us the proper uniformity, but 869 01:13:32.040 --> 01:13:34.980 direct drive and the steep cracks in those one of the 870 01:13:34.980 --> 01:13:37.380 things I did when I first went live was you know, how did you 871 01:13:37.380 --> 01:13:40.710 define intensity because all the you know, the fraction of the 872 01:13:40.710 --> 01:13:43.770 beam is much smaller than the target. And so, the beams were 873 01:13:43.770 --> 01:13:46.530 always in the intermediate field and in the spatial profile was 874 01:13:46.530 --> 01:13:50.190 horrible. And so it was clear that you cannot uniformity at 875 01:13:50.190 --> 01:13:53.430 any mode to do that. So that was that was one of the principal 876 01:13:53.430 --> 01:13:57.300 reasons. The other one was a lot of camaraderie with X rays. And 877 01:13:57.840 --> 01:14:01.740 thought for four reactors that was let's have this few beams as 878 01:14:01.740 --> 01:14:06.570 possible for reactor and so a whole room you know, it was it 879 01:14:06.570 --> 01:14:08.970 was a natural thing that came from that. So it was a 880 01:14:08.970 --> 01:14:18.150 combination of the lasers were not smooth enough. This is all 881 01:14:18.150 --> 01:14:20.250 this read, but the original one was there was a lot of interest 882 01:14:20.250 --> 01:14:25.920 in direct drive. And I always was interested in direct drive. 883 01:14:25.950 --> 01:14:29.550 And then when, when purchased when NRL did the smoothing 884 01:14:29.550 --> 01:14:32.220 experiment, did isI this actually shows you some of the 885 01:14:32.700 --> 01:14:38.130 aspects of the competition that was done, you know, at NRL and 886 01:14:38.160 --> 01:14:41.010 and then SSD was invented here which are solid state lasers. I 887 01:14:41.010 --> 01:14:44.940 think Bob challenge from boettner will make a solid state 888 01:14:44.940 --> 01:14:49.830 laser smooth. And just to show you some of the badass with the 889 01:14:49.830 --> 01:14:54.990 competition, no one NRL did this. They did isI I wanted to 890 01:14:54.990 --> 01:14:57.450 see that X ray conversion efficiency get better with 891 01:14:57.450 --> 01:15:02.910 smooth beams and Don Konya. was I'd hired from Los Alamos was a 892 01:15:03.000 --> 01:15:08.070 little more than I wanted him to go to NRL to do experiments. And 893 01:15:08.160 --> 01:15:14.280 John me once on the travel. I asked John knuckles who was 894 01:15:14.280 --> 01:15:17.310 running physics, because he sent him in so John Nichols center, 895 01:15:17.400 --> 01:15:21.600 and it was, of course, made an improvement. So sometimes the 896 01:15:21.600 --> 01:15:24.990 competition was not so good. But I think overall it was, I should 897 01:15:24.990 --> 01:15:30.600 say, but when I first met Dave Crandall story. So the high 898 01:15:30.600 --> 01:15:32.730 temperature diet, we just had the high temperature diagnostic 899 01:15:32.730 --> 01:15:36.090 conference just a while ago, and that was always dominated by The 900 01:15:36.090 --> 01:15:40.170 MFE. Committee. There was no ICF people involved in it at all. So 901 01:15:40.170 --> 01:15:44.670 nivolumab, who was at UCLA, was chairing it. And I, you know, I 902 01:15:44.670 --> 01:15:47.670 went down to give a talk UCLA said, and he said, Well, having 903 01:15:47.670 --> 01:15:50.190 a diagnostic conference, how come you guys never show up? I 904 01:15:50.190 --> 01:15:56.220 said, You never invite us. So he invited me to the first one and 905 01:15:56.220 --> 01:16:00.990 Hilton Head. And it was the only talk there on ICF was I was 906 01:16:00.990 --> 01:16:03.450 talking about the diagnostics for Nova because Nova was just 907 01:16:03.480 --> 01:16:06.540 gonna come we were planning Nova. And then the next meeting, 908 01:16:06.540 --> 01:16:09.810 I said wheelchair, and so Livermore chaired the next high 909 01:16:09.810 --> 01:16:19.920 temperature diagnostics meeting in Lake Tahoe. And so it's 910 01:16:19.920 --> 01:16:23.640 invasion, MSE, but there was ice Jeff was involved in and I 911 01:16:23.640 --> 01:16:27.270 remember I went out to dinner, I come back, and my secretary is 912 01:16:27.300 --> 01:16:32.250 playing the piano and Dave Crandall was singing. First time 913 01:16:32.250 --> 01:16:35.970 I met Dave Crandall, you were singing with joy, right in? Yes. 914 01:16:36.300 --> 01:16:39.150 We sang all about four o'clock in the morning. That's right. 915 01:16:39.180 --> 01:16:41.730 That was my first interaction. Dave, and Tom 916 01:16:41.730 --> 01:16:44.730 Finn, who was my roommates that the whole time I was at that 917 01:16:44.730 --> 01:16:48.990 conference, I was never in the room. You only slept with my 918 01:16:48.990 --> 01:16:52.260 shirts. And I have to say, I did take a long nap when he went out 919 01:16:52.260 --> 01:16:56.700 for tour. And I didn't. But it's close to true. I was never in 920 01:16:56.700 --> 01:17:00.570 the room. And it's your fault. But your secretaries, 921 01:17:00.630 --> 01:17:04.470 yes. That was the beginning of the conference, you know, now 922 01:17:04.500 --> 01:17:06.570 you'll see how actively the ICF programs involved 923 01:17:06.570 --> 01:17:09.690 in actually the first i temperature diagnostics 924 01:17:09.690 --> 01:17:12.330 conference was in Knoxville, Tennessee, and I'm sure 925 01:17:12.330 --> 01:17:15.120 you know, this is the first one I went to was in Hilton Head. 926 01:17:15.180 --> 01:17:17.460 But that was the first time I was at Hilton that I know, I 927 01:17:17.460 --> 01:17:24.960 didn't know, I didn't know you then. And so I think that was, 928 01:17:24.960 --> 01:17:28.530 uh, you know, and then once, you know, themes moving was 929 01:17:28.560 --> 01:17:32.730 identified. And, you know, I thought, all these are these 930 01:17:32.730 --> 01:17:35.280 beams moving, you know, into our focus. The problem with this 931 01:17:35.280 --> 01:17:38.310 argument that infrared catastrophe was, you know, we're 932 01:17:38.310 --> 01:17:41.130 doing nanosecond pulses, you know, on this and it didn't look 933 01:17:41.130 --> 01:17:43.560 so back to the plasmas, we're still small, but the whole room, 934 01:17:43.560 --> 01:17:45.390 the plasmas were big, and that's when, you know, all the 935 01:17:45.390 --> 01:17:48.510 instabilities went haywire. And that's why it's all classified, 936 01:17:48.510 --> 01:17:50.970 but never say how bad it was, because all sides inside the 937 01:17:50.970 --> 01:17:55.050 whole room. But your beam smoothing when this was 938 01:17:55.050 --> 01:17:58.470 demonstrated, you know, it didn't change some of the 939 01:17:58.470 --> 01:18:01.560 people's minds at Livermore, but I thought this was no direct 940 01:18:01.560 --> 01:18:04.650 drive, had as good a chance as indirect drive and be more 941 01:18:04.650 --> 01:18:08.040 efficient and less action, some ways less complicated plasma 942 01:18:08.040 --> 01:18:13.080 physics. That's that was the beginning of that. When but 943 01:18:13.080 --> 01:18:15.540 Livermore, initially, he looked at Nautilus paper, because it's 944 01:18:15.540 --> 01:18:18.270 unclassified, there's still direct price. And he always 945 01:18:18.270 --> 01:18:21.030 thought direct drive was interesting. He never gave up on 946 01:18:21.030 --> 01:18:26.640 it. But Lowood was pushed indirect drive. If you look at 947 01:18:26.640 --> 01:18:28.530 the original paper, it's knuckles with these and then 948 01:18:28.530 --> 01:18:36.300 Zimmerman. And, you know, and John's idea, man, Doc, Crazy 949 01:18:36.300 --> 01:18:42.210 guy. Run ran the code. Last next, and George wrote the code. 950 01:18:42.780 --> 01:18:46.110 And so my first one deliver more, I was by myself before 951 01:18:46.170 --> 01:18:51.270 when I was more together. And I would run work from six in the 952 01:18:51.270 --> 01:18:54.360 morning to three in the afternoon. And I would come in 953 01:18:54.360 --> 01:18:57.780 so I was by myself, because there was no one with me. And he 954 01:18:57.780 --> 01:19:02.130 would, it would an hour a day, he would teach me elastics. And 955 01:19:02.130 --> 01:19:05.070 so I learned to appreciate what the hydrocodone was. And then at 956 01:19:05.070 --> 01:19:07.140 nine o'clock, the prover would come in 957 01:19:12.480 --> 01:19:15.300 so that's that. So that's how I got exposed to both of those. So 958 01:19:15.300 --> 01:19:17.490 again, there's no training for like, you know, now there is a 959 01:19:17.490 --> 01:19:19.800 you'll believe what we do here and other places, but there was 960 01:19:19.800 --> 01:19:24.270 no, there was no training and laser plasma physics at all. You 961 01:19:24.270 --> 01:19:26.190 know, and the anomalous absorption, this is the 50th 962 01:19:26.220 --> 01:19:29.010 year of anomalous absorption and that was that was the beginning 963 01:19:29.010 --> 01:19:33.390 of the field and 50 years ago. So with John Dawson and Kroger 964 01:19:33.390 --> 01:19:36.090 and the like, but that's how that's how I got started doing 965 01:19:36.090 --> 01:19:39.180 this and everything but that was but so direct drive is always 966 01:19:39.780 --> 01:19:44.460 and I used to tell Marshall rosewood, was a wonderful 967 01:19:44.460 --> 01:19:48.690 friend. And I used to complain about Tony, I said, if I have a 968 01:19:48.690 --> 01:19:53.070 tokamak may turn on and disrupts, I can't say dammit, I 969 01:19:53.070 --> 01:19:55.680 wish I had to stellarator even though they're toroidal magnetic 970 01:19:55.680 --> 01:19:59.430 confined systems, but an ICF I try one, I'll try direct drive. 971 01:19:59.430 --> 01:20:02.250 Also, I'll try Faster national trials, shocking mission, I put 972 01:20:02.250 --> 01:20:04.500 the state if I do the right driver, I can look at every 973 01:20:04.500 --> 01:20:07.050 different thing. And that's a real advantage of last year, we 974 01:20:07.050 --> 01:20:08.940 have to never forget that sometimes we do. 975 01:20:10.590 --> 01:20:14.520 So we have just Paisner here in the audience as well. So I'd 976 01:20:14.520 --> 01:20:17.370 like to get if you have anything to contribute to this discussion 977 01:20:17.370 --> 01:20:18.300 on the early days, 978 01:20:19.980 --> 01:20:24.660 you know, I was always on the laser side of the house, not on 979 01:20:24.660 --> 01:20:27.870 the target physics side. And actually, I started my career, I 980 01:20:27.870 --> 01:20:32.100 was actually in the ICF program. So crikey will remember that my 981 01:20:32.100 --> 01:20:36.690 first year. And he brought up the issue of Clinton homes name, 982 01:20:36.990 --> 01:20:41.520 he put up nonlinear physics. And the first thing I worked on was 983 01:20:44.280 --> 01:20:49.650 for phosphate classes to lower in flow index, and to find many 984 01:20:49.650 --> 01:20:55.170 of the indexes. But part of that problem was small scale focusing 985 01:20:55.170 --> 01:20:58.380 problem was solved by John Hunt, it's actually in what's called 986 01:20:58.380 --> 01:21:02.250 the hunt relay, which is a one by one. It's just the x. It's 987 01:21:02.490 --> 01:21:06.750 just a telescope, basically, an image relay system. So the early 988 01:21:06.750 --> 01:21:11.610 systems, the Moca chains did not have the image relay system, 989 01:21:11.970 --> 01:21:15.000 every modern system hasn't, really. But when we started, 990 01:21:15.000 --> 01:21:19.710 that was not my thought in July 1 1974. That wasn't the case, we 991 01:21:19.710 --> 01:21:23.100 didn't have a hungry late system to take care of some of the 992 01:21:23.100 --> 01:21:25.320 farmers. So we alleviated some of the problems that we were 993 01:21:25.530 --> 01:21:30.000 going to solve with these fancy new materials. So we ended up 994 01:21:30.030 --> 01:21:36.150 basically with phosphate classes for last 50 years. Basically, 995 01:21:36.150 --> 01:21:39.540 basically, you didn't have to go to these magical materials to 996 01:21:39.540 --> 01:21:43.380 get the one micron fluencies out of the averages, because they 997 01:21:43.380 --> 01:21:46.950 aren't really system. That's my first year. Parenthetically I 998 01:21:46.950 --> 01:21:49.620 went to the isotope separation program, it didn't reappear 999 01:21:49.620 --> 01:21:56.250 until 1992. So I went from 1975 to 1992. And the ICF program was 1000 01:21:56.250 --> 01:22:00.690 on the other side of the other side of the laboratory, 1001 01:22:00.750 --> 01:22:06.150 basically, in the early days, and I didn't reappear until July 1002 01:22:06.150 --> 01:22:14.520 Davis basically matched me with Mike back in 1992. So 1003 01:22:15.390 --> 01:22:17.130 there was very little, it's just that there's very little 1004 01:22:17.130 --> 01:22:18.480 interaction between Apalis. And 1005 01:22:18.599 --> 01:22:21.509 it was up until that point, there was a little interaction 1006 01:22:21.509 --> 01:22:24.929 with a lot of laser technologies being developed. And eventually, 1007 01:22:25.169 --> 01:22:28.619 a lot of the team that came over to work on nifty came from the 1008 01:22:29.009 --> 01:22:32.579 Atlas side of the house. Thanks. 1009 01:22:32.610 --> 01:22:36.690 I have a question about the early days, I was a postdoc and 1010 01:22:37.110 --> 01:22:41.790 they join us to provide matory, astrophysics, 1971 through 74. 1011 01:22:42.030 --> 01:22:47.400 And about 72 or so somebody think there were two seminars 1012 01:22:47.400 --> 01:22:50.460 that I went through to change my life. One was black holes, 1013 01:22:50.460 --> 01:22:54.720 because I still try to keep up with it. The other was I FD 1014 01:22:54.750 --> 01:22:59.790 inertial fusion energy, I think it was Carl Hausman. I don't 1015 01:22:59.790 --> 01:23:03.150 remember for sure. But he gave a talk where he talked about how 1016 01:23:03.150 --> 01:23:09.000 Subotic mission has been, I think 1972. And then he had a 1017 01:23:09.000 --> 01:23:15.660 concept for reactor in which there were about 50 reaction 1018 01:23:15.660 --> 01:23:20.250 chambers, and one laser. And you rotated the laser around through 1019 01:23:20.250 --> 01:23:24.240 the reaction chambers called the rotary engine in the 21st 1020 01:23:24.240 --> 01:23:29.010 century. You remember that? Was that a real concept? For my 1021 01:23:29.010 --> 01:23:34.290 time? I don't remember that. Well, that was my first 1022 01:23:34.290 --> 01:23:41.130 introduction. And I have followed that ever since. Okay, 1023 01:23:41.160 --> 01:23:44.850 so we're winding down to the final question. Yeah. I had a 1024 01:23:44.850 --> 01:23:48.060 question. Mike, when you first got into the field, it was right 1025 01:23:48.060 --> 01:23:54.960 around the time of the oil shock. Resume classifier. 1026 01:23:56.220 --> 01:24:00.240 Otherwise, I mean, yes. I mean, I actually I remember I was at 1027 01:24:00.240 --> 01:24:04.170 Princeton. I remember the Yom Kippur War. You know, and that's 1028 01:24:04.170 --> 01:24:07.440 how I got interested in Fusion not because of that, yeah. So so 1029 01:24:07.440 --> 01:24:11.160 there was a bump in you know, in all energy research at the time. 1030 01:24:12.059 --> 01:24:15.779 I went to DOE in the office of fusion energy at about that 1031 01:24:15.779 --> 01:24:18.539 time. There was a bump, but it didn't last very long. 1032 01:24:19.440 --> 01:24:22.740 And that was actually the creation of D O. E was basically 1033 01:24:22.740 --> 01:24:27.990 at that time the ADC became the department. That's why do E's 1034 01:24:28.500 --> 01:24:32.160 headquarters is the Forrestal building. It was actually built 1035 01:24:32.190 --> 01:24:38.040 as a Navy building that hence Forrestal and slash under base, 1036 01:24:38.040 --> 01:24:40.680 it was asked to start the Department of Energy. And he 1037 01:24:40.680 --> 01:24:43.770 said, Well, I need to build in downtown besides the German town 1038 01:24:43.770 --> 01:24:47.160 building that and so that was given to DOE. 1039 01:24:48.690 --> 01:24:49.980 And it was in Jimmy Carter's 1040 01:24:50.580 --> 01:24:53.070 part of your order form form doe. Okay, 1041 01:24:53.130 --> 01:24:55.590 so in the last few minutes, do any of the panelists have 1042 01:24:55.590 --> 01:25:00.090 anything else that they want to say about the early days but 1043 01:25:00.090 --> 01:25:01.560 just Rajon anything else? 1044 01:25:01.830 --> 01:25:08.400 Well, the couple of things that we didn't mention already. With 1045 01:25:08.400 --> 01:25:12.930 respect to Rochester, probably two other key people, probably 1046 01:25:12.930 --> 01:25:17.520 the most important in terms of the politics and business side 1047 01:25:17.520 --> 01:25:22.710 of the, of the university, boss Brown, who is the president of 1048 01:25:22.710 --> 01:25:30.750 the UART time, beginning. And Dawn has his vice president. Don 1049 01:25:30.750 --> 01:25:36.450 was prior to that Director of the Peace Corps. And Bob was 1050 01:25:37.140 --> 01:25:44.370 associated with DARPA, where he went to Cornell on here. And he 1051 01:25:44.370 --> 01:25:50.520 made a choice basically, to support the laser lab in its 1052 01:25:50.520 --> 01:25:55.890 infancy, which most university presidents would not have made. 1053 01:25:56.130 --> 01:26:00.900 Basically, there was a lot of pressure at the time to put 1054 01:26:00.900 --> 01:26:06.810 money into a law school or some other entity of the university 1055 01:26:06.810 --> 01:26:12.480 put some money in probably in many year money or on $20 1056 01:26:12.480 --> 01:26:25.740 million to make sure that we had a start. And his decision was 1057 01:26:25.740 --> 01:26:30.210 rationalized by him. Following why he said he bet on the 1058 01:26:30.390 --> 01:26:37.170 person. He basically bet on moshed time, because he felt a T 1059 01:26:37.170 --> 01:26:43.350 had his soul career and his whole life into the project. And 1060 01:26:43.350 --> 01:26:45.030 that's what he would follow. 1061 01:26:46.530 --> 01:26:54.990 Okay, thanks, John. Oh, we have a chat of Bob McCrory. That you 1062 01:26:54.990 --> 01:26:57.870 say not quite right. I can clarify. Go ahead. 1063 01:26:59.310 --> 01:27:05.970 When Sproul went forward was that, can you hear me? The 1064 01:27:06.000 --> 01:27:11.190 amount for a movement of trust trustees was $10.4 million. And 1065 01:27:11.190 --> 01:27:14.670 of course, it created a lot of angst on the River campus, 1066 01:27:14.670 --> 01:27:19.680 especially by people associated with the Eastman School at the 1067 01:27:19.680 --> 01:27:23.520 time, who are already extra money. If there was such a 1068 01:27:23.520 --> 01:27:28.530 thing, go to the Eastman School. Bob also served on an early 1069 01:27:28.530 --> 01:27:34.230 classification review. And that's kind of how we got into 1070 01:27:34.260 --> 01:27:40.140 direct drive in the early days. Moshe Lubin did his thing. And 1071 01:27:40.140 --> 01:27:45.870 then he went to Sohio, where he flamed out after about a year 1072 01:27:46.440 --> 01:27:51.660 long story that was kind of funny. And Jason took over the 1073 01:27:51.660 --> 01:27:55.740 direction of the lab for about a year, Jay had a real dislike for 1074 01:27:55.740 --> 01:27:59.940 dealing with the federal government, and lobbyists and 1075 01:27:59.940 --> 01:28:03.630 the Congress in general, so he can hardly wait to get out. And 1076 01:28:03.630 --> 01:28:08.640 then I was selected as director from 83, where I served for 1077 01:28:08.640 --> 01:28:15.750 about 35 years. The early days were quite fiery. John Lester 1078 01:28:15.750 --> 01:28:19.710 Emmet thought any dime not spent at Livermore was a dime wasted. 1079 01:28:20.100 --> 01:28:23.190 And he was always trying to get people to gang up on one 1080 01:28:23.190 --> 01:28:27.180 another, it was row, one of us out of the lifeboat. And then of 1081 01:28:27.180 --> 01:28:31.320 course, it would be only a short little calculation to guess who 1082 01:28:31.320 --> 01:28:36.450 would be next. And, of course, one of the most difficult people 1083 01:28:36.450 --> 01:28:40.470 to deal with Steve Wagner. But he was a favorite of the 1084 01:28:40.470 --> 01:28:45.420 appropriations committees, because at least according to 1085 01:28:45.420 --> 01:28:52.020 Jeanne Wilson, and Dr. Jones and all kinds of other people, he 1086 01:28:52.020 --> 01:28:56.760 was a real pain in the labs rear end. And they liked that because 1087 01:28:56.760 --> 01:29:00.810 they could kind of find out where the concerns were. Anyway, 1088 01:29:01.140 --> 01:29:02.430 that's about all I have. 1089 01:29:04.380 --> 01:29:08.790 Well, thanks, Bob. Key said you have something to say? 1090 01:29:09.120 --> 01:29:11.880 Just a very short comment. First of all, Bob, it's nice to hear 1091 01:29:11.880 --> 01:29:16.080 your voice again, hope you're doing well. appreciated your 1092 01:29:16.140 --> 01:29:20.820 honesty and talking about the competition at that time. It was 1093 01:29:20.820 --> 01:29:25.980 pretty severe. But this is this event is for Mike Campbell. And 1094 01:29:26.670 --> 01:29:30.660 I can think of very few people in my career, who's been more 1095 01:29:30.660 --> 01:29:34.380 collaborative than Mike Campbell. I think we'll hear 1096 01:29:34.380 --> 01:29:37.800 stories throughout the day of how he's collaborated with 1097 01:29:37.800 --> 01:29:42.930 people to bring good ideas to the fore and, and in fact, 1098 01:29:42.930 --> 01:29:46.710 oftentimes use them to his advantage. Mike is a great 1099 01:29:46.710 --> 01:29:52.230 collaborator and really appreciate that sort of approach 1100 01:29:52.230 --> 01:29:56.670 to the community. So thank you, Mike. I look forward to hearing 1101 01:29:56.670 --> 01:29:58.560 more the rest of the day. Thanks. 1102 01:29:59.550 --> 01:30:02.490 Okay. Well, Keith, thank you very much. And I thank all the 1103 01:30:02.490 --> 01:30:07.560 panelists. That brings us to the end of this session. It's the 1104 01:30:07.560 --> 01:30:10.290 we'll stop for a break. So thank you, everyone. And thank you 1105 01:30:10.290 --> 01:30:12.810 everyone here for participating in this great discussion on the 1106 01:30:12.810 --> 01:30:16.950 early days. So we'll take a break now from 1015 to 1030. And 1107 01:30:16.950 --> 01:30:20.880 we're back on Dustin will be moderating the next session on 1108 01:30:20.880 --> 01:30:24.000 Star Wars and the first major facilities and the British 1109 01:30:24.000 --> 01:30:26.640 invasion at 1030. 1110 01:30:27.870 --> 01:30:28.320 Thank you